Greyhound industry presents rebuttal to Baird’s greyhound ban

THE New South Wales greyhound racing industry has handed in a rebuttal to Premier Mike Baird to challenge the Liberal Party leader’s decision to ban the sport within the state.

The rebuttal was submitted on Wednesday by the NSW Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance, a new body which has been established by the Greyhound Breeders, Owners and Trainers Association (GBOTA), independent greyhound racing clubs and major stakeholders from the industry.

Brenton Scott, the CEO of the GBOTA, said the newly formed NSW Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance was aiming to to prove to the Premier the industry is capable of making the necessary changes needed to continue.

“We seek proper engagement with the Premier and the NSW Government to set expectations and a timeframe for the industry to present its plan and make the required changes,” Scott said.

“We believe this approach will allow the industry to prove that it is, and can be, viable and sustainable whilst being centrally focused on the total life cycle management of greyhounds in alignment with community expectations.”

Scott further added that the rebuttal challenged the legalities of basing the decision to ban the sport on the concept of ‘social licence’.

“The rebuttal identifies serious flaws in both the facts in the report and the entire construction of the investigation,” said Scott. “It indicates that the terms of reference were inappropriately narrow and biased.

“It appears the Premier has based his decision on the industry’s supposed loss of ‘social licence’ and yet there is no legal application to the concept of a ‘social licence’.

“Another key issue of the rebuttal relates to the multiple instances where members of the industry and the public have been denied procedural fairness.

“This has significant implications, not the least of which is the potential for major damages claims against the NSW Government should the Premier call for a ban relying on the particular recommendation he has chosen from this flawed report.

“The rebuttal indicates that only one of the 80 recommendations has been granted any consideration and that it is clear that the report does not take into consideration the changes the industry has made in the last 16 months.

“This critical omission and the decision to totally ignore this evidence brings the Premier’s decision into question and is unfair and wrong.

“The claim by the Premier that the industry would not be sustainable, even if recommendations two to 80 were fully adopted, are false based on our life cycle management model (developed by KPMG) that shows we can, and will, operate sustainably if we are allowed to bring about the changes we want to make to meet the community’s animal welfare standards.

“All we ask is for is a fair go. The industry believes that it is only fair to be given the opportunity to prove that it is adaptable and capable of change.”

Scott said another key aspect for consideration is potential damages claims from over 15,000 people which could cost the government and taxpayers enormously.

“Imagine the total cost of damages for affected people when you account for those losing or not being able to take up work,” said Scott. “The people of NSW are in effect being asked to consider the implications of this on the basis that the Government is closing an entire industry based on a report that is flawed.”

Key ‘facts’ of the report which have been highlighted as flaws in the rebuttal include claims that the greyhound racing industry cannot change.

The rebuttal highlighted that the number of greyhounds born in NSW over the past 12 months has fallen by 48% – with fewer greyhounds born meaning that fewer will need homes after their careers.

The rebuttal also called into question Justice Michael McHugh’s statement in the Special Commission report which said “… data was not sufficiently robust to allow the Commission to determine the precise number of greyhounds that are destroyed each year in this State”, determining that McHugh’s calculations on wastage were a guess, with regulatory tracking of a greyhound’s lifecycle not introduced until February 2015.

The rebuttal refuted McHugh’s statement that over 21% of greyhounds who compete are injured, highlighting that race track injuries had only been measured by Greyhound Racing NSW (GRNSW) since November 2015.

Since then, between January 1 and March 1 2016, GRNSW reported that the injury incidence rate was 2.7%.

Also called into question was the report’s conclusion that “about 10 to 20 per cent of trainers” engaged in live baiting, based on a single testimony from a disgraced trainer.

The rebuttal indicated that in NSW, from 4400 registered trainers, only two participants have been jailed for live baiting, with another awaiting trial. Additionally, a further two participants are being actively investigated by GRNSW, while another eight cases were not able to proceed due to illegally obtained footage.

Also mentioned was that only 14 participants were among the 69 witnesses who gave evidence at the Special Commission of Inquiry hearings.

The Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance also hit back at the report’s dismissal of the industry’s economic impact, giving evidence that the sport contributed $335 gross to NSW and more than $30 million in state taxes.

The rebuttal included further information that the NSW industry provides 1700 full time equivalent jobs, over 1000 of which are in regional areas, with more than 15,000 people set to be implicated by the decision to ban the sport.

Past Discussion

  1. So if you minimise the industry as much as possible, as per TAB obligations, you still require the culling of thousands?

    Good luck making that fly, and good luck making it economic in the process.

    It will be death by a thousand cuts rather than a clean finish with compensation.

  2. I keep hearing the words sustainable blah blah. Facts and figures is what I want Brenton Scott. How many greyhounds do you want whelped each year in nsw and how many do you expect to become wastage. Thats just two numbers I want from you. You have yet to providr those numbers. So stop talking bullshit and give us some actual numbers and we’ll see if those numbers … to quote you … ‘meet community expectation’ 

  3. DaveSampson75  .dave I am surprised you can hear anything at all….outside of your own voice/ego and those little men running around up top there….lol

  4. No SAV  If you are so interested look it up yourself. All the state controlling bodies provide the numbers of all pups in every litter born and include whether they are male or female. The put this in the public domain. They also keep records of every pup over the age of 3 months which includes, sex, dam, sire, ear-brand and microchip number. They also keep records of what the dog looks like even down to the colour of their toe nails. Just how much more freaking information do you want.

    Look it up yourself there are at least 15 sites where you can do this. What you are so important and love greyhounds so much we should provide you with this information get off your own arse and do a bit of research yourself .

  5. DaveSampson75  That’s right Brenton Scott you provide this very important person ( self appointed Minister for the Department of Hound numbers ) Ruler of the known universe, possible contender for the UN position instead of Rudd ( well you probably would have a chance at that if Rudd was the only competition in fact I think my stud dog would.) Yes this person who spends his day abusing dog trainers on the internet is entitled to what ever he wants right now,  What is wrong with you Brenton do it now before Dave has another dummy spit.

  6. Deborah, a simple number was all I was after, not a celebrity roast.

    You put your head under a cold shower for a minute and let the answer come from Dave or Aaron.

    As meticulous as I’m sure they are they should be able to shoot the figures off the top of their head.

  7. No SAV  Sorry No SAV I didn’t realise you were asking the world’s most informed greyhound critics Dave and Aaron and in that case I would have thought it was more like “wait a sec while I just pull a number out of my arse that supports my own case.” I just get a little tired of the anti racing crowd claiming there are no records- there are plenty it is just that you have to be willing to put in a lot of time to sort through them (because there are so many) and of course a lot of different states and regulators who keep them.

  8. No problems at all, Deborah.

    I’m still waiting for one of these low life dole bludgers to give me a simple figure.

    If it is too much of a brain strain, maybe they can call their little mate Hughie (I’m over educated, just ask me) Mungbean and he might be able to give them a ball park figure.

  9. No SAV  Yes it is sometimes very difficult without seeing people’s expressions and body language to always know where they are coming from and of course I let my emotions jump in before my brain because I just find it so ridiculous that these people claim there are no records and we are hiding stuff. I would have thought that if anyone with access to a computer can find out that an eight year old greyhound on my property who has never won a race has one toenail sorry half a toenail that is a different colour than the rest of her toenails then I would have thought the record keeping was pretty thorough. The problem is there are too many records- if a high court judge decided it was too difficult and time consuming to go through the records and he would estimate it ( and he has spent a lifetime reviewing information) then, well Aaron and Dave will be on the job for a while.

    Yes I always find it interesting that the anti mob just presume we are a bunch of ignorant unintelligent people. I myself have a couple of university degrees which I do not believe gives me any right to tell anyone what to do. I believe some one who runs a trial track has a Degree in Chemical Engineering and the man who runs the trial track in my own town whilst not educated is without a doubt one of the most interesting, intelligent and well informed people I have ever met. Yes this presumption that any-one without a uni degree is dumber than me is of course bullshit. I have met many highly intelligent people who simply did not come from a family where they could afford to go  to uni and many uni graduates  who frankly their parents wasted their money.

    The numbers appear to be a bit flexible. Baird the Brumby killer started off with about 45,000 and know the latest figure is 97,000 by the end of next week it will three and half million. Whilst 99 greyhounds buried is sad it is not quite 97,000.

    And of course the latest cattle prod incident- after due process they should send this idiot to jail not just for cruelty but he is obviously so stupid he is a danger to the community. he might have got it to jump that time but next time I doubt he got it to jump at all. Yes they should, if after due process  he is found guilty, take  his trainers license off him  for life as well not just because he is cruel he obviously knows nothing about dog training. I have never heard of anyone doing that before this incident and interestingly they have had this video for four years and if he is guilty letting him get away with it for all that time. Some-one should be answerable for that gross bit of inefficiency. I think Baird’s lap dog Mr Grant  should the one.

  10. DaveSampson75  dave,those little men are called radicals in case you are confused.

    when educated by a single agenda,they get called RADICALISED.

    now,we all know what radicalisation can do to a person. heaps of examples world wide,WHAT’S ONE MORE,hey?

  11. Who is the most credible party here … one of Australia’s most respected High Court judges who accepted 151,000 pages of evidence before reaching a decision or an industry that is proven to lie, falsify data or purposely omit key information to try and present their “sport” in a better light?

    68,000+ healthy greyhounds were slaughtered; GBOTA by their own admission have just 1200 members … that’s more than 56 greyhounds slaughtered for each and every member of this organisation

    As for 15,000 people affected?  Not even close. This “popular sport” has an average crowd attendance per meeting of 114.  At most meetings, the greyhounds outnumber the spectators.

    This is not an iconic sport for battlers – it is a dwindling, backward thinking, barbaric and cruel anachronism run by an administration with a proven record of misrepresentation and hiding facts from key stakeholders.

    Candidly, these people have forfeited their right to maintain their “sport” in our progressive, compassionate society and I applaud the decision made by Premier Baird.

  12. RickLeighton Gee Rick!.  figures quoted by McHugh range between 48K to 68K and all of a sudden, by your assumption, it’s now 68K+.  And you accuse the Greyhound Industry of falsifying figures.  By the end of next week, you’ll be claiming that we destroy over 100,000 dogs a week.

    Obviously, you know nothing about greyhound racing.  True, that very few people attend on course to watch the races.  But have you heard of Sky Channel?  You know, that Commercial Institution owned by Rupert Murdoch that broadcasts into thousands of Homes, Pubs & Clubs all over Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore, the UK.  Well, that’s where the Sport is popular.  The evidence is in the turnover of the TAB (NSW & VIC), & Unibet in Queensland.

    The 15,000 affected are only in NSW and comprise of not only owners & trainers, but Administrative Staff and assorted employees, suppliers of meat, health products, training equipment (but not Cattle Prods), and a host of other goods and services.

    Honestly, you need to broaden your research a little further than the anti greyhound racing rabble’s narrow minded websites. 

  13. BJoe RickLeighton

    You can around in circles looking for all the conspiracies you like but in the end the cold hard evidence will bring you undone.

    The 68,000+ is not “my assumption” – paragraph 1.4 specifically states a number of 68,448 and still leaves open the question of 80,721 unaccounted greyhounds.

    Happily for you, I have heard of Sky and I also know better than most where their ratings come from – and it isn’t from greyhound racing.  If you believe its really that popular … put the actual numbers up so that everybody reading will know.

    In terms of turnover, I believe TAB estimated greyhound betting to be less than 5% of turnover with no revenue slippage expected once the ban kicks in.

    And the 15,000 … its just a fantasy figure – not even the GRNSW hand picked consultants could come up with a number even close to that.  You can only count people once in this data, you know.

    As for the insinuation that McHugh is part of an “anti greyhound racing rabble” who apparently denies the greyhound industry “procedural fairness”, McHugh was part of the Full Bench that has been described as “the most gifted and courageous High Court in our history.”  Procedural justice, administrative justice, the right to appeal, duty of care – these were all areas in which the High Court excelled and McHugh was central to many of the decisions.

    This is not a man who denies procedural justice or fairness or is part of a rabble – 151,000 pages of evidence were considered and the conclusion was clear-cut.

    You simply no longer have the social license to maintain this activity – just the same as bull baiting, pit fighting and other past times that have forfeited their right to have a place in a compassionate society.

  14. RickLeighton BJoe From the Greyhounds Australasia website I can see there were 1,232 Whelpings for the Financial year ending 2015, in NSW.
    The average number of puppies per litter (According to the industry) is 6.6.

    We can evaluate how many years we should consider simply by spanning a greyhounds natural lifespan. To my knowledge this is 13 years (from  GAP website If I recall correctly) So 1,232 Whelpings x 6.6 Pups born each time x 13 years of records before natural attrition by death = 105,705.6 Puppies born into this world for the purposes of racing. (In New South Wales)

    That’s how many your industry and its participants have lost track of. If you can provide evidence that they have all been rehomed then great, enjoy your social license (we can discuss injuries, live baiting, doping etc another time)

    Now if you can provide individual cases of “lived happily every after” then that’s good, kinda normal, expected of you, and consistent with mainstream expectations.
    If we can provide examples of greyhounds dropped off to be culled at vets, buried in mass graves, killed at the track etc etc etc then tha’ts very very bad and you have some serious explaining to do about whats happened to them in the big picture.

    And here we are. Explain away.

  15. BJoe RickLeighton  beautifully put BJoe. Rick -McHugh is an expert no doubt about applying the law. He has admitted he estimated -he is not a mathematician he is a respected juror and he has rectified 16 mistakes that he has made. He has also assumed that every put born makes it to maturity. So, as respected and learned as he is -he does not appear to be an expert in population studies which he has admitted.  He made 79 recommendations about how it could continue and his 79 recommendations were ignored, just the one that suited Baird was put in place. Rushton’s opening statement clearly stated he wanted the industry shut down, hardly an unbiased statement. His behaviour was a disgrace which is probably why McHugh is a High Court Judge and he is still a QC. and we all know what that stands for.

    And as for your statement about our progressive compassionate society – you are joking – do you watch the news? The fact a few animal welfare nutters are getting a lot of press and air time and the support of some opportunistic pollies is not evidence of a compassionate caring world just that now we have a 24 hours news cycle and social media. so anyone, no matter how ignorant can rave on and tell others what to do. If this is your evidence for a compassionate new world I don’t like your chances of making it to the High Court.

  16. RickLeighton BJoe

    Rick, 5% of the TAB’s turnover is quite hefty by anyone’s standards.  Just look at what happened to the TAB’s share price on the Stock Exchange when the announcement was made.  Went South.  No slippage is expected coz our hypocritical Premier can’t stop the TAB betting on interstate greyhound racing.  It will cost the State a heap of money if he broke the InterCode agreement.  Bloody hypocrite!  

    The rabble I was referring to was your mob and not McHugh.  But I’m sure he’d have been given his riding instructions prior to the commencement of the Commission and proof of that is that he allowed Senior Counsel to make the now proven infactual claim that up to 40K dogs were put down each year.  That Statement went untested and the rest of the hearing was nothing short of being a ‘Kangaroo Court’.  It was a set up.  

    Still, a rebuttal has been presented to Baird, which he will no doubt ignore because of the number of deals he has made and make no mistake about that.  The Industry will have its day in Court and from where I stand, we have a better than 50/50 chance of having a ruling in our favour.  You see, McHugh made 80 recommendations in total, of which he opted for Recommendation 1.  Other than the deals he made with the AJP Senator to buy his vote to get the Gender Bender Bill passed through the Senate, the real sticking point is Recommendation 64, which would compel the Racing Minister to retrieve the money earnt buy the Greyhound Industry and generously given by him to the Thoroughbreds.  All these reasons combined affected his decision to ban the sport.  In short, it was unfair and unjust and based on a biased inquiry. 

  17. AaronC_NZ RickLeighton BJoe Aaron, I can only speak from my own experience. Puppies die at birth, they die in paddock accidents etc.  My bitch had a litter in 2015.  Of the 10 pups inside her, 3 were still born.  This is not an uncommon occurrence.  I have 2 here in my home, 1 born in 2011 and the other in 2014.  I had another one born in 1999 and euthanased in 2013, 1 week short of her 14th birthday and another, Sid, born 2009 who slipped on the fairway on the golf course behind my home and snapped his hind leg.  He was a 35kg dog and I carried him home, a distance of about 800 metres before taking him to the vets.  The point I’m making is that you shouldn’t make assumptions.  

    As for your ‘Social License’, it is nothing but a form of bullying used by people like you.  We have enough Laws, Rules & Regulations and we don’t need to be judged by people like you.  I think I explained to you on Facebook about the hypocritical stance of our Premier.  If ‘Social Licence was high on his priority, he’d be banning Poker Machines, the Thoroughbred Industry, Coal Mining and Coal Seam Gas, all of which are ‘off’ in the eyes of the Community.  

    Just a question, do you own any animals?

  18. Deborah555 BJoe RickLeighton

    Well, QC stands for Queen’s Counsel which before the change in title to SC was arguably the highest form of recognition a practitioner could achieve.  McHugh doesn’t have to be a mathematician – he is an expert in reviewing and evaluating substantial quantities of submissions representing a range of opinions before giving a reasoned and learned decision – which is exactly what he did.

    For both you and BJoe I’ll explain one of the basic tenets of procedural justice – just because you don’t like the decision doesn’t mean an injustice has been perpetrated.  There was no Kangaroo Court, no set-ups … just a simple adherence to evidentiary procedure and due process.

    And in reading the report, it was the industry’s own admissions that sunk their case – GRNSW’s own numbers proved what was the ongoing wastage was going to be.  If you want someone to blame, look to the mess created by the industry’s own peak administrative body

  19. BJoe AaronC_NZ RickLeighton

    Yes, I do.  I have three dogs of my own.  And I agree with you on a number of the issues you raise – I’m not sure of your point on coal mining, but I think you’re right on Pokies, Thoroughbreds and CSG

  20. No SAV The latest annual figure from industry is financial year ending 2015

    I am encourged to hear via sources-in -the-know that year ending 2016 will be lower, but it is STILL more dogs added to a gigantic dumped population as it is.

    If the industry was serious it would have imposed a 2-3 year moratorium on breeding.

  21. Rick- thank you for telling me what QC stands for I did however know the official version. A few years studying law at uni helped me with that one. There is another variation in the community but I doubt some-one as serious as you has heard it. I just love your admiration for lawyers Rick obviously one has never sent you a bill . For centuries Rick they have been called shysters and for good reason. Whilst I respect the legal system I can honestly say it does not apply to all the lawyers in it. Read the Law Society pages where lawyers are disciplined (don’t do it again) and if they have really stuffed up occasionally they may get their licenses taken off them for offences that others would go to prison for. Read them Rick and you may find they  are not quite the honourable people you think. Most of their offences relate to stealing their clients money and quite a lot of them are into that.

    McHugh has admitted his numbers are not accurate the difference of – give or take 20,000 when the total is supposedly 60000 plus is a huge error mathematically speaking.

  22. PS If you are all so keen on the numbers get onto to Davo he is supposed to be fulfilling his duties in that area and he thinks he knows more than anyone in the legal system but he is not doing the calculation he is”listening” and f—–ing around on this site.

  23. AaronC_NZ  No problem Aaron but I notice they have not done any likes lately might need to get onto them, they are slacking off and apparently these are very important to young people.

  24. AaronC_NZ No SAV  Gee Aaron now you are actually coming up with something that resembles a good idea. Everyone in the greyhound industry wants the solution to overbreeding. The participants voluntarily reduced breeding so maybe, just maybe you are onto something here.

  25. Deborah555 AaronC_NZ No SAV It pays to see it for what it is though: Continued breeding when more breeding is the last thing greyhounds need.

    Its like if There was a burglar who was caught and warned, and so now, instead of doing 10 burglaries a month he was now doing 5. Do you congratulate that burglar or tell him he’s doing great at reforming or say he’s blown his last chance?
    You needed more, sooner. It’s now too little.. too late.

  26. Deborah555 AaronC_NZ No SAV

    Everyone in the greyhound industry wants the solution to overbreeding. “

    It’s not like they’re un-neutered strays. 

    You simply don’t artificially inseminate them or mate them. How hard is it to NOT do that, really?

    You kind of walk out the door and “OOPS, there’s another one pregnant, darn.. How’d that happen”?

  27. RickLeighton BJoe AaronC_NZ Coal mining linked to Global Warming, if there is such a thing.  Mike Baird won’t touch any of the above industries because they’re too lucrative to ‘ban’ or limit and they’re run by powerful people.  If he attempted  to ban thoroughbred racing, he’d have to take on the likes of Shiek Mohammed and the ‘Uptown’ Society, not to mention the esteemed Michael McHugh, who has owned and raced horses for many years and has made no attempt to hide his admiration of the sport.  Hypocrisy knows no bounds

  28. AaronC_NZ Deborah555 No SAV  Why didn’t you just tell us sooner Almighty Aaron we would have listened and saved ourselves if only the racing people had listened to me me me me me me everything would be perfect.

  29. AaronC_NZ Deborah555 No SAV  Where do you get your mandate from Aaron aside from an overwhelming belief in your own importance to demand an end to racing? A few mates at the dole office?  And thank you so much for your amazing scientific explanation of avoiding pregnancy in the racing greyhound perhaps you could get it published in a vet journal.

  30. Deborah, there’s any number of acronyms QC is used for and I’m tipping that Quality Control isn’t the one you’re thinking of. :)

    If you have studied law then you would be aware of the magnificent work that the Mason High Court did – particularly in unconscionability and equitable rights – I am an unashamed supporter of many things they achieved but it doesn’t mean I love the legal profession.  I think saying that many are involved in stealing clients’ money is a bit over the top – a very, very small number have done that. However I can state firsthand i know how much they charge in fees – I have been part of litigation that went well into the six figure amount in legal costs and a lot of it came out of my own pocket.  You shouldn’t assume to know what a person’s experiences are.

    But that gets us away from the original argument.  I’ve read your different points, you are plainly intelligent and able to articulate your views so here’s the parts of the argument I really have problems with and I’d like to see if you can give a decent response.

    Point 1:  Let’s assume for the moment there is a mathematical error and it isn’t 68,000 dogs – instead its “only” 48,000 dogs ie the lower end of the estimate.  How does that change the culpability of the greyhound industry?  It is still a mass slaughter of healthy animals.

    Point 2:  GRNSW submitted they need 7,548 greyhounds bred each year to maintain their current racing program.  in 9 years they’ve rehoused 593 (66 per year) and on accepted evidence between 3,800 – 5,300 of these greyhounds each year will be killed.  Forget whether the historical number is right or wrong, how can an activity that has an operating model that needs to slaughter this many animals have any right to continue?

    It is GRNSW’s evidence of their ongoing operating model more than anything else that drives me to support the complete ban

  31. RickLeighton  No that is not the one I was thinking of.

    I have yet to see any accurate numbers-  they increase on an almost daily basis. The ones I used were the numbers you quoted. I think you are being a little bit dishonest suggesting I am saying 20,000 dogs are irrelevant. You know full well I did not mean that.  I merely used it to demonstrate there is a wide margin of error, I think “mass slaughter” is an emotive term. All animal industries kill healthy animals, some a day old. The argument that the greyhound people are killing healthy animals for sport and entertainment I think is unfair. The greyhound and horse racing  industries  would not exist if it did not provide an economic return just like any other agricultural industry. Mass slaughter is not used to describe chicken farming. The “logic” of condemning greyhound people is that the animal in question is appealing and of course the greyhound people are a small group who are easily “picked off” by those opposed to racing.

    I think your arguments about how wonderful McHaugh is and your high praise –  are based on his decision being one you liked. I think, if he had come out and said that he thought the industry should continue and he saw no problem with wastage you would not be singing his praises. He is notable and well known because he is one of only two high court judges who  have come from working class backgrounds. He really is no more outstanding than any other high court judge it was just harder for him to initially get there, He has admitted making errors.

  32. RickLeighton BJoe  Clear cut ?- he gave 79 recommendations on how the industry could continue. Baird simply chose the one out of the 80 that suited his purpose. I do not think he would have bothered with 79 recommendations if he truly thought the industry should be closed down.  Social license What does that mean Rick? I think we live in a compassionate society ( I am sorry but I find that claim absurd) and therefore based on a false premise or opinion I can ban racing.

  33. RickLeighton  PS I think Baird chose him because of his working class background  to appear that it was not class warfare knowing of course that McHaugh had left that background as quickly as he could. Yes a rather clever choice.

  34. RickLeighton  The idea that greyhound racing cannot be allowed to continue because healthy animals are slaughtered and (forgive me if you are vegan) and that other industries are justified in killing animals because they are producing food is not really a valid one. but a sentimental one based on the appealing nature  of greyhounds. Agriculture is not about producing food it is about making money. No one will produce food unless there is a profit in it. They will not slaughter animals just to feed their fellow humans and bear the costs themselves. During the Great Depression 1920’s  in America, despite the fact that thousand of Americans were literally starving- large numbers of animals were killed and destroyed in a way that made them inedible and enormous quantities of fruit , wheat and vegetables were destroyed because there was no market for them. People starved, many to death because there was no money to pay for the agricultural products. To suggest that because the racing industry does not produce food therefore it cannot justify itself with regards animal deaths is sentimental. These industries produce money which allows people to buy food. Gambling is a billion dollar industry around the planet with many making a living from it – racing plays an integral part of it. Your description of greyhound racing does not suggest a concern for greyhounds but rather snobbery.

  35. AaronC_NZ RickLeighton BJoe  The entire racing industry and the people on this site are under no obligation whatsoever to explain or justify themselves to some-one who appears to spend his entire day at home in his bedroom playing around on the computer. Given the amount of time you spend on this site and the hours you log on – you do not appear to work so you do not even qualify as a taxpayer and if you do work you are spending a lot of time on this site when you are being paid to work.

    Your claims of “why should we clean up after you” are incredulous, you would never have cleaned up anything in your life, I can guarantee that bedroom you spend all day in stuffing around on the internet is grotty and has the aroma of what you are really doing in there all day.

    Your sense of entitlement is staggering.

  36. AaronC_NZ RickLeighton BJoe  Aaron nobody in the racing industry or anyone on this site is under any obligation to explain themselves to some nobody who appears to spend his entire day in his bedroom stuffing around on the internet. Given the amount of time you spend on here and the hours you log on it would seem that you do not work. You would not even qualify as a taxpayer. Your sense of entitlement is staggering. If you do work you are spending a lot of company time rather than working pursuing your need to abuse people.

    Your claims “why should we clean up after you” are amazing I can hazard a guess that the bedroom you spend all day in slagging off dog trainers is grotty and has the aroma of what you are really doing in their all day.

    Arrogance, a sense of entitlement and a delusional sense of your own grandiosity.

  37. BJoe Deborah555 No SAV  Good one BJoe I like that had a good laugh. Although most of the kelpies I have met have had a lot more courage, class and a much, much higher IQ than this gutless wonder.