Greyhound industry presents rebuttal to Baird’s greyhound ban

THE New South Wales greyhound racing industry has handed in a rebuttal to Premier Mike Baird to challenge the Liberal Party leader’s decision to ban the sport within the state.

The rebuttal was submitted on Wednesday by the NSW Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance, a new body which has been established by the Greyhound Breeders, Owners and Trainers Association (GBOTA), independent greyhound racing clubs and major stakeholders from the industry.

Brenton Scott, the CEO of the GBOTA, said the newly formed NSW Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance was aiming to to prove to the Premier the industry is capable of making the necessary changes needed to continue.

“We seek proper engagement with the Premier and the NSW Government to set expectations and a timeframe for the industry to present its plan and make the required changes,” Scott said.

“We believe this approach will allow the industry to prove that it is, and can be, viable and sustainable whilst being centrally focused on the total life cycle management of greyhounds in alignment with community expectations.”

Scott further added that the rebuttal challenged the legalities of basing the decision to ban the sport on the concept of ‘social licence’.

“The rebuttal identifies serious flaws in both the facts in the report and the entire construction of the investigation,” said Scott. “It indicates that the terms of reference were inappropriately narrow and biased.

“It appears the Premier has based his decision on the industry’s supposed loss of ‘social licence’ and yet there is no legal application to the concept of a ‘social licence’.

“Another key issue of the rebuttal relates to the multiple instances where members of the industry and the public have been denied procedural fairness.

“This has significant implications, not the least of which is the potential for major damages claims against the NSW Government should the Premier call for a ban relying on the particular recommendation he has chosen from this flawed report.

“The rebuttal indicates that only one of the 80 recommendations has been granted any consideration and that it is clear that the report does not take into consideration the changes the industry has made in the last 16 months.

“This critical omission and the decision to totally ignore this evidence brings the Premier’s decision into question and is unfair and wrong.

“The claim by the Premier that the industry would not be sustainable, even if recommendations two to 80 were fully adopted, are false based on our life cycle management model (developed by KPMG) that shows we can, and will, operate sustainably if we are allowed to bring about the changes we want to make to meet the community’s animal welfare standards.

“All we ask is for is a fair go. The industry believes that it is only fair to be given the opportunity to prove that it is adaptable and capable of change.”

Scott said another key aspect for consideration is potential damages claims from over 15,000 people which could cost the government and taxpayers enormously.

“Imagine the total cost of damages for affected people when you account for those losing or not being able to take up work,” said Scott. “The people of NSW are in effect being asked to consider the implications of this on the basis that the Government is closing an entire industry based on a report that is flawed.”

Key ‘facts’ of the report which have been highlighted as flaws in the rebuttal include claims that the greyhound racing industry cannot change.

The rebuttal highlighted that the number of greyhounds born in NSW over the past 12 months has fallen by 48% – with fewer greyhounds born meaning that fewer will need homes after their careers.

The rebuttal also called into question Justice Michael McHugh’s statement in the Special Commission report which said “… data was not sufficiently robust to allow the Commission to determine the precise number of greyhounds that are destroyed each year in this State”, determining that McHugh’s calculations on wastage were a guess, with regulatory tracking of a greyhound’s lifecycle not introduced until February 2015.

The rebuttal refuted McHugh’s statement that over 21% of greyhounds who compete are injured, highlighting that race track injuries had only been measured by Greyhound Racing NSW (GRNSW) since November 2015.

Since then, between January 1 and March 1 2016, GRNSW reported that the injury incidence rate was 2.7%.

Also called into question was the report’s conclusion that “about 10 to 20 per cent of trainers” engaged in live baiting, based on a single testimony from a disgraced trainer.

The rebuttal indicated that in NSW, from 4400 registered trainers, only two participants have been jailed for live baiting, with another awaiting trial. Additionally, a further two participants are being actively investigated by GRNSW, while another eight cases were not able to proceed due to illegally obtained footage.

Also mentioned was that only 14 participants were among the 69 witnesses who gave evidence at the Special Commission of Inquiry hearings.

The Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance also hit back at the report’s dismissal of the industry’s economic impact, giving evidence that the sport contributed $335 gross to NSW and more than $30 million in state taxes.

The rebuttal included further information that the NSW industry provides 1700 full time equivalent jobs, over 1000 of which are in regional areas, with more than 15,000 people set to be implicated by the decision to ban the sport.

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AaronC_NZ
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AaronC_NZ

So if you minimise the industry as much as possible, as per TAB obligations, you still require the culling of thousands?

Good luck making that fly, and good luck making it economic in the process.

It will be death by a thousand cuts rather than a clean finish with compensation.

DaveSampson75
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DaveSampson75

I keep hearing the words sustainable blah blah. Facts and figures is what I want Brenton Scott. How many greyhounds do you want whelped each year in nsw and how many do you expect to become wastage. Thats just two numbers I want from you. You have yet to providr those numbers. So stop talking bullshit and give us some actual numbers and we’ll see if those numbers … to quote you … ‘meet community expectation’ 

Deborah555
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Deborah555

AaronC_NZ  I see you still have your little fan club of lickers, sorry likers on the job Aaron.

dogem53
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dogem53

DaveSampson75  .dave I am surprised you can hear anything at all….outside of your own voice/ego and those little men running around up top there….lol

No SAV
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No SAV

How many Greyhound pups were born in NSW over the last 12 months?

Deborah555
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Deborah555

No SAV  If you are so interested look it up yourself. All the state controlling bodies provide the numbers of all pups in every litter born and include whether they are male or female. The put this in the public domain. They also keep records of every pup over the age of 3 months which includes, sex, dam, sire, ear-brand and microchip number. They also keep records of what the dog looks like even down to the colour of their toe nails. Just how much more freaking information do you want. Look it up yourself there are at least 15… Read more »

No SAV
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No SAV

Dave, Aaron?

How many bred in the last 12 months?

Deborah555
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Deborah555

DaveSampson75  That’s right Brenton Scott you provide this very important person ( self appointed Minister for the Department of Hound numbers ) Ruler of the known universe, possible contender for the UN position instead of Rudd ( well you probably would have a chance at that if Rudd was the only competition in fact I think my stud dog would.) Yes this person who spends his day abusing dog trainers on the internet is entitled to what ever he wants right now,  What is wrong with you Brenton do it now before Dave has another dummy spit.

No SAV
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No SAV

Deborah, a simple number was all I was after, not a celebrity roast.

You put your head under a cold shower for a minute and let the answer come from Dave or Aaron.

As meticulous as I’m sure they are they should be able to shoot the figures off the top of their head.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

No SAV  Sorry No SAV I didn’t realise you were asking the world’s most informed greyhound critics Dave and Aaron and in that case I would have thought it was more like “wait a sec while I just pull a number out of my arse that supports my own case.” I just get a little tired of the anti racing crowd claiming there are no records- there are plenty it is just that you have to be willing to put in a lot of time to sort through them (because there are so many) and of course a lot of… Read more »

No SAV
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No SAV

No problems at all, Deborah.

I’m still waiting for one of these low life dole bludgers to give me a simple figure.

If it is too much of a brain strain, maybe they can call their little mate Hughie (I’m over educated, just ask me) Mungbean and he might be able to give them a ball park figure.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

No SAV  Yes it is sometimes very difficult without seeing people’s expressions and body language to always know where they are coming from and of course I let my emotions jump in before my brain because I just find it so ridiculous that these people claim there are no records and we are hiding stuff. I would have thought that if anyone with access to a computer can find out that an eight year old greyhound on my property who has never won a race has one toenail sorry half a toenail that is a different colour than the rest… Read more »

dogem53
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dogem53

DaveSampson75  dave,those little men are called radicals in case you are confused.

when educated by a single agenda,they get called RADICALISED.

now,we all know what radicalisation can do to a person. heaps of examples world wide,WHAT’S ONE MORE,hey?

RickLeighton
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RickLeighton

Who is the most credible party here … one of Australia’s most respected High Court judges who accepted 151,000 pages of evidence before reaching a decision or an industry that is proven to lie, falsify data or purposely omit key information to try and present their “sport” in a better light? 68,000+ healthy greyhounds were slaughtered; GBOTA by their own admission have just 1200 members … that’s more than 56 greyhounds slaughtered for each and every member of this organisation As for 15,000 people affected?  Not even close. This “popular sport” has an average crowd attendance per meeting of 114.… Read more »

BJoe
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BJoe

RickLeighton Gee Rick!.  figures quoted by McHugh range between 48K to 68K and all of a sudden, by your assumption, it’s now 68K+.  And you accuse the Greyhound Industry of falsifying figures.  By the end of next week, you’ll be claiming that we destroy over 100,000 dogs a week. Obviously, you know nothing about greyhound racing.  True, that very few people attend on course to watch the races.  But have you heard of Sky Channel?  You know, that Commercial Institution owned by Rupert Murdoch that broadcasts into thousands of Homes, Pubs & Clubs all over Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong,… Read more »

RickLeighton
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RickLeighton

BJoe RickLeighton You can around in circles looking for all the conspiracies you like but in the end the cold hard evidence will bring you undone. The 68,000+ is not “my assumption” – paragraph 1.4 specifically states a number of 68,448 and still leaves open the question of 80,721 unaccounted greyhounds. Happily for you, I have heard of Sky and I also know better than most where their ratings come from – and it isn’t from greyhound racing.  If you believe its really that popular … put the actual numbers up so that everybody reading will know. In terms of turnover,… Read more »

AaronC_NZ
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AaronC_NZ

RickLeighton BJoe From the Greyhounds Australasia website I can see there were 1,232 Whelpings for the Financial year ending 2015, in NSW.The average number of puppies per litter (According to the industry) is 6.6. We can evaluate how many years we should consider simply by spanning a greyhounds natural lifespan. To my knowledge this is 13 years (from  GAP website If I recall correctly) So 1,232 Whelpings x 6.6 Pups born each time x 13 years of records before natural attrition by death = 105,705.6 Puppies born into this world for the purposes of racing. (In New South Wales) That’s how… Read more »

Deborah555
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Deborah555

BJoe RickLeighton  beautifully put BJoe. Rick -McHugh is an expert no doubt about applying the law. He has admitted he estimated -he is not a mathematician he is a respected juror and he has rectified 16 mistakes that he has made. He has also assumed that every put born makes it to maturity. So, as respected and learned as he is -he does not appear to be an expert in population studies which he has admitted.  He made 79 recommendations about how it could continue and his 79 recommendations were ignored, just the one that suited Baird was put in place.… Read more »

BJoe
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BJoe

RickLeighton BJoe Rick, 5% of the TAB’s turnover is quite hefty by anyone’s standards.  Just look at what happened to the TAB’s share price on the Stock Exchange when the announcement was made.  Went South.  No slippage is expected coz our hypocritical Premier can’t stop the TAB betting on interstate greyhound racing.  It will cost the State a heap of money if he broke the InterCode agreement.  Bloody hypocrite!   The rabble I was referring to was your mob and not McHugh.  But I’m sure he’d have been given his riding instructions prior to the commencement of the Commission and proof… Read more »

BJoe
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BJoe

AaronC_NZ RickLeighton BJoe Aaron, I can only speak from my own experience. Puppies die at birth, they die in paddock accidents etc.  My bitch had a litter in 2015.  Of the 10 pups inside her, 3 were still born.  This is not an uncommon occurrence.  I have 2 here in my home, 1 born in 2011 and the other in 2014.  I had another one born in 1999 and euthanased in 2013, 1 week short of her 14th birthday and another, Sid, born 2009 who slipped on the fairway on the golf course behind my home and snapped his hind leg.  He… Read more »

RickLeighton
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RickLeighton

Deborah555 BJoe RickLeighton Well, QC stands for Queen’s Counsel which before the change in title to SC was arguably the highest form of recognition a practitioner could achieve.  McHugh doesn’t have to be a mathematician – he is an expert in reviewing and evaluating substantial quantities of submissions representing a range of opinions before giving a reasoned and learned decision – which is exactly what he did. For both you and BJoe I’ll explain one of the basic tenets of procedural justice – just because you don’t like the decision doesn’t mean an injustice has been perpetrated.  There was no Kangaroo Court,… Read more »

RickLeighton
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RickLeighton

BJoe AaronC_NZ RickLeighton

Yes, I do.  I have three dogs of my own.  And I agree with you on a number of the issues you raise – I’m not sure of your point on coal mining, but I think you’re right on Pokies, Thoroughbreds and CSG

AaronC_NZ
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AaronC_NZ

No SAV The latest annual figure from industry is financial year ending 2015

I am encourged to hear via sources-in -the-know that year ending 2016 will be lower, but it is STILL more dogs added to a gigantic dumped population as it is.

If the industry was serious it would have imposed a 2-3 year moratorium on breeding.

AaronC_NZ
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AaronC_NZ

Thanks Deborah.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

Rick- thank you for telling me what QC stands for I did however know the official version. A few years studying law at uni helped me with that one. There is another variation in the community but I doubt some-one as serious as you has heard it. I just love your admiration for lawyers Rick obviously one has never sent you a bill . For centuries Rick they have been called shysters and for good reason. Whilst I respect the legal system I can honestly say it does not apply to all the lawyers in it. Read the Law Society… Read more »

Deborah555
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Deborah555

PS If you are all so keen on the numbers get onto to Davo he is supposed to be fulfilling his duties in that area and he thinks he knows more than anyone in the legal system but he is not doing the calculation he is”listening” and f—–ing around on this site.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

AaronC_NZ  No problem Aaron but I notice they have not done any likes lately might need to get onto them, they are slacking off and apparently these are very important to young people.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

AaronC_NZ No SAV  Gee Aaron now you are actually coming up with something that resembles a good idea. Everyone in the greyhound industry wants the solution to overbreeding. The participants voluntarily reduced breeding so maybe, just maybe you are onto something here.

AaronC_NZ
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AaronC_NZ

Deborah555 AaronC_NZ No SAV It pays to see it for what it is though: Continued breeding when more breeding is the last thing greyhounds need.

Its like if There was a burglar who was caught and warned, and so now, instead of doing 10 burglaries a month he was now doing 5. Do you congratulate that burglar or tell him he’s doing great at reforming or say he’s blown his last chance?
You needed more, sooner. It’s now too little.. too late.

AaronC_NZ
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AaronC_NZ

Deborah555 AaronC_NZ No SAV

Everyone in the greyhound industry wants the solution to overbreeding. “


It’s not like they’re un-neutered strays. 

You simply don’t artificially inseminate them or mate them. How hard is it to NOT do that, really?

You kind of walk out the door and “OOPS, there’s another one pregnant, darn.. How’d that happen”?

BJoe
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BJoe

RickLeighton BJoe AaronC_NZ Coal mining linked to Global Warming, if there is such a thing.  Mike Baird won’t touch any of the above industries because they’re too lucrative to ‘ban’ or limit and they’re run by powerful people.  If he attempted  to ban thoroughbred racing, he’d have to take on the likes of Shiek Mohammed and the ‘Uptown’ Society, not to mention the esteemed Michael McHugh, who has owned and raced horses for many years and has made no attempt to hide his admiration of the sport.  Hypocrisy knows no bounds

Deborah555
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Deborah555

AaronC_NZ Deborah555 No SAV  Why didn’t you just tell us sooner Almighty Aaron we would have listened and saved ourselves if only the racing people had listened to me me me me me me everything would be perfect.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

AaronC_NZ Deborah555 No SAV  Where do you get your mandate from Aaron aside from an overwhelming belief in your own importance to demand an end to racing? A few mates at the dole office?  And thank you so much for your amazing scientific explanation of avoiding pregnancy in the racing greyhound perhaps you could get it published in a vet journal.

RickLeighton
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RickLeighton

Deborah, there’s any number of acronyms QC is used for and I’m tipping that Quality Control isn’t the one you’re thinking of. :) If you have studied law then you would be aware of the magnificent work that the Mason High Court did – particularly in unconscionability and equitable rights – I am an unashamed supporter of many things they achieved but it doesn’t mean I love the legal profession.  I think saying that many are involved in stealing clients’ money is a bit over the top – a very, very small number have done that. However I can state… Read more »

Deborah555
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Deborah555

RickLeighton  No that is not the one I was thinking of. I have yet to see any accurate numbers-  they increase on an almost daily basis. The ones I used were the numbers you quoted. I think you are being a little bit dishonest suggesting I am saying 20,000 dogs are irrelevant. You know full well I did not mean that.  I merely used it to demonstrate there is a wide margin of error, I think “mass slaughter” is an emotive term. All animal industries kill healthy animals, some a day old. The argument that the greyhound people are killing healthy animals… Read more »

Deborah555
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Deborah555

RickLeighton BJoe  Clear cut ?- he gave 79 recommendations on how the industry could continue. Baird simply chose the one out of the 80 that suited his purpose. I do not think he would have bothered with 79 recommendations if he truly thought the industry should be closed down.  Social license What does that mean Rick? I think we live in a compassionate society ( I am sorry but I find that claim absurd) and therefore based on a false premise or opinion I can ban racing.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

RickLeighton  PS I think Baird chose him because of his working class background  to appear that it was not class warfare knowing of course that McHaugh had left that background as quickly as he could. Yes a rather clever choice.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

RickLeighton  The idea that greyhound racing cannot be allowed to continue because healthy animals are slaughtered and (forgive me if you are vegan) and that other industries are justified in killing animals because they are producing food is not really a valid one. but a sentimental one based on the appealing nature  of greyhounds. Agriculture is not about producing food it is about making money. No one will produce food unless there is a profit in it. They will not slaughter animals just to feed their fellow humans and bear the costs themselves. During the Great Depression 1920’s  in America, despite the fact… Read more »

Deborah555
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Deborah555

Dave – get to bed  you have a busy day tomorrow searching for those numbers,

Deborah555
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Deborah555

AaronC_NZ RickLeighton BJoe  The entire racing industry and the people on this site are under no obligation whatsoever to explain or justify themselves to some-one who appears to spend his entire day at home in his bedroom playing around on the computer. Given the amount of time you spend on this site and the hours you log on – you do not appear to work so you do not even qualify as a taxpayer and if you do work you are spending a lot of time on this site when you are being paid to work. Your claims of “why should we clean up… Read more »

Deborah555
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Deborah555

AaronC_NZ RickLeighton BJoe  Aaron nobody in the racing industry or anyone on this site is under any obligation to explain themselves to some nobody who appears to spend his entire day in his bedroom stuffing around on the internet. Given the amount of time you spend on here and the hours you log on it would seem that you do not work. You would not even qualify as a taxpayer. Your sense of entitlement is staggering. If you do work you are spending a lot of company time rather than working pursuing your need to abuse people. Your claims “why should we… Read more »

BJoe
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BJoe

Deborah555 No SAV

Hear Hear! Deb.  Not to mention the Drover’s Dog called Newson.

Deborah555
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Deborah555

BJoe Deborah555 No SAV  Good one BJoe I like that had a good laugh. Although most of the kelpies I have met have had a lot more courage, class and a much, much higher IQ than this gutless wonder.