Who wasn’t involved: the evidence should be available
ONE of the most amazing examples of the failure of the greyhound hierarchy to deal efficiently and professionally with the vast amount of video evidence collected by the undercover cameras shown on the recent Four Corners exposé has been by not asking for copies of the doubtless hundreds of hours of footage and combing through it to find those going about their business honestly and professionally.
Of course, officials may indeed have requested the footage I mention. Yet, not a word to that effect has emanated from the hallowed halls of officialdom (in this case the GRV) as far as I'm aware. Yet surely this would have been one of the first things to be considered in the aftermath of the damning evidence presented on Australia-wide television.
Greyhound racing is an industry which needs to foster good public relations, yet those at the helm fail time and time again. By public relations I do not mean the ‘spin' of the kind we see day after day leaking from the offices of politicians of all shades and at all levels. I'm talking about quantifiable, verifiable, irrefutable evidence of people within greyhound racing, obviously the breeders, breakers and trainers, who are engaged in doing the right thing across the board.
Given the amount of footage the undercover cameras managed to catch, it would be interesting to see just how many of the various visitors to the Tooradin Trial Track were shown to have not been engaged in blooding and live baiting.
That evidence surely could be made available to the stewards in Victoria. Those stewards should be able to make identifications of the many trainers who trialled their greyhounds at Tooradin and never looked like being offered a rabbit, pig or possum or asked for one.
In the simple interests of fair play, honesty and transparency, one would hope those caught on camera doing nothing more than training their greyhounds correctly should be named and praised.
Right now, anybody who has ever visited the Tooradin Trial Track at any time is considered suspect. Yet, hopefully, there is plenty of video evidence to show there are plenty of trainers who went there and did nothing more than trial their charges as part of their normal training regime.
The wider community basically now believes every person involved in the breeding, rearing, breaking-in and training of greyhounds to race is involved in some way with blooding or live baiting their charges.
It's no good for those in charge of the industry to make unsubstantiated claims to camera that most involved are not engaged in live baiting. We need evidence, and I would have thought the video footage from Tooradin could help provide that.
After all, it can't be that hard to work out how many individuals make regular trips to Tooradin. Let's say, as a broad argument, 100 individual trainers are regulars at the trial track each week and were captured on the undercover video footage. If the video evidence shows 20 of those engaged, Darren McDonald-style, in the live baiting, then it means 80 weren't. That's hard, verifiable evidence of 80 licensed persons who could be reasonably held up as good examples. It also provides at least a starting point for gauging the real extent of live baiting across the code.
While the animal liberationists and their allies may be viewed as the ‘enemy' by many in the greyhound industry, the true ‘enemy' lies among us. After all, if those charged with keeping the industry clean and compliant had been doing what they were being paid to do then Four Corners would never have had a story.
100% spot on and the knee jerk reactions in all 3 states when a measured, consistent response was required have been an embarrassment for the whole industry. Amateurish at best by the administrations that will no doubt lead to expensive legal proceedings that the long suffering innocent participants will ultimately pay for.
Of course they should. Everyone is sick of the whole industry being tarred with the same brush.
So true. Lets look at it at another way. No one is condoning what has occurred, but as one prominent politician has said, what about these people breaking the laws to get this footage, meaning breaking into and trespassing on peoples properties to illegally set up and video and audio spy cameras. Last time I checked they were serious criminal offences. Is it just a case of authorities turning a blind eye to certain crimes. I wonder if the illegal videoing and taping of a judge, politician or some other prominent person was done there would be an outcry. As… Read more »
The people that have been breached need to report a trespass to the police. Unless that has happened, police can not get involved.
Why because I exercise my right of free speech. I believe in tge rule of the law for all so every one is treated equally, not just when some people think it should be. A means does not justify an end.
Lets look at it another way. If your industry had policed itself properly activists wouldn’t have had to resort to the actions they did to bring this issue to light. Pretty weak to cry about trespassing when if it weren’t for that trespassing people like Noble, McDonald and Mills would still be live baiting right now. Is that your preferred scenario? Because if you want the the activists punished then you are basically saying you wish these things never came to light. If that’s your stance, then you don’t have much credibility in this debate. There are many circumstances under… Read more »
I think this is a pretty weak article considering that you a) don’t know if the footage has been requested b) have no idea how extensive the footage is and are assuming there is hours upon hours of people going about their business correctly. You could at least contact GRV for comment before making a bunch of assumptions and getting on your soap box. I also think you have a misunderstanding of people’s outrage if you think that showing footage of people not breaking the rules is going to somehow improve the sport’s image. The reason that people will cast… Read more »
@Mr Dimbledore Really? You think the government a governing body response is what’s embarrassing for your industry right now? Wow.
Hi Duncan it is against the rule for greyhounds to trial on an unregistered trial track. see cut and paste. It has been very hard to find the GRNSW reference to what trial tracks are registered. I was able to find a list for 2010 on goggle which picked up the registered trial tracks. (the reference came from the GRNSW dogs news archives) I got the list prior to the four corners investigation and my research was history based. If it is complicated for researchers to find lists of registered trial tracks what change has others got. Also the local… Read more »
Hugh_ Spot on but it is human for the innocent to grieve. The courts will decide the conduct of the various interests and allow or disallow evidence accordingly.
I hope the sentence if appropriate takes into account the Western Australia case of extreme cruelty where the person involved got 800 hours community penalty. Jail time works out at $200 to about $400 per day and community service costs less that 10% to administer.
Good debate, The appointment of the ex high court judge in NSW with Royal Commission powers and the former SC assisting the ICAC Greyhound Inquiry previously will walk carefully through the minefield of civi rights you have mentioned.
I think numbers should be released, how many seperate people trailed to how many charged, that would show that it is a minority
Really great PR strategy, Duncan! “Ooh, look over here. We have hours and hours of video footage of greyhound trainers NOT committing criminal acts! And if you enjoy watching that, we have some more footage of paint drying on a wall that will really fascinate you.”
RufusLelevrier The best way to vote for greyhound racing is to turn up at the forums and inquiries. There were a good turn up of officials at the Temora Greyhounds last Sunday as well as at Cessnock.
John Tracey Hugh_ Absolutely, it’s only natural to feel that way and totally understandable. But it’s not a smart PR strategy, that’s my point. The emotional reaction and the smart reaction are rarely the same thing. Recognise the view of the public, and respond appropriately. Whether or not you agree with public perception doesn’t change the fact that you have to deal with it. Public perception matters – Not only because the public puts pressure on politicians, but because the public actually has the right to an opinion given that they pay taxes. If you’re in an industry that is partially… Read more »
Given that the investigation is still underway, it’s probably a bit premature for that. Authorities are acting on more than just that video footage, they will be trying to uncover the extent of the problem and no doubt following many leads. When it’s all done and dusted, and people have been charged, people within the industry will be free to point out the number of people the industry employs and what percentage of wrongdoers were actually found.
Hugh_ Hi Hugh, Firstly I would like to thank you for the way in which you have put your point across and I as a greyhound owner agree with most things which you have written however I will counter your claim of “condemning activists = wishing this practice was never brought to light”. For myself condemning activists = condemning hypocrisy because the same people have no trouble whatsoever in supporting child and slave labour in most if not all major retail outlets throughout the world. The reason they don’t worry about changing their shopping habits is simply because it would affect… Read more »
Hugh_ John Tracey Agree with you totally it is a matter of balance and timing. The wider public interest , as mentioned in other posts”, will come later when cool heads will prevail.
The best thing that we can do to support greyhound racing is to turn up to meetings and inquiries.” A picture is worth a thousand words”
Congratulations to the two hundred who turned up to hear the Government appointed CEO of GRNSW in the Hunter, and “voted” for greyhound racing.
@Brad Hugh_ Hey Brad, thanks for your thoughts and opinions, I think this is an important debate to have. I too hate hypocrisy, I think we all do. I think anyone who lives in relative luxury in the western world and tries to live a good moral existence has to feel somewhat conflicted due to the huge disparity in wealth across the globe. Especially since our luxurious western lifestyle is somewhat built upon the backs of poorly paid workers in the developing world, who are overworked and have little opportunity to improve their circumstance. So I sympathise with what you are… Read more »
John Tracey Hugh_ I agree 100%, and I really hope that people’s displeasure with the governing bodies doesn’t prevent them from attending various meetings. And If anything I would imagine it would encourage people to discuss their concerns. The more this issue is discussed as a group the better, and it would be a shame if some people engage in the process while another segment turns their back on it.
Hugh_ John Tracey An anthropologist pointed out to me that the “guilty: think that everyone is up to what they are doing and the others think the opposite is the case. The prompt to a published debate on the subject prior to the Florida legislation making blooding of greyhounds a criminal office in the 1980’s follows and shows that one party regards blooding as being 10% effective and 90% negative while the supporters of blooding state that 95% of trainers do it. My early historical notes supports blooding being overall ineffective and I can give many examples. Greyhounds are sight and… Read more »
Yes agreed……… so far there has been nothing positive come out of this
Hugh_ Hi Hugh, Thank you for your considered reply. However what you need to remember is that I have already stated that I agree with many of your points I did however disagree with your equation which you have since amended. The amendment I have no problem with and you are right. I have no gripe against the footage shown on 4 Corners or how it was obtained and I am not debating this. I don’t care that it was done illegally as it is the lesser of two evils. If the actions were not being undertaken by these particular… Read more »
@Brad Hugh_ As long as it’s a level playing field for everyone, why should you complain?
RufusLelevrier Hugh_
Please elaborate Rufus. If it is what I think you are talking about then it comes down to common sense about what is permitted and what is not permitted.
If it is not common sense why should I not complain?
@Brad Hugh_ Fair point Brad. But I was referring to the views expressed in the documentary and not the views of the activists outside of this. It wasn’t an overly relevant point to make anyway, I just go rambling on a tangent. I can’t quite subscribe to this idea of yours that my accuser must be free of any fault, or to put it in your words “come from a place without question”. We are all flawed and we should all help each other to improve, no one is completely above any criticism. And being a flawed individual doesn’t invalidate your… Read more »
@Brad RufusLelevrier Hugh_ Sometimes regulations need to be quite general in order to encompass a wide range of possible transgressions. I can see that this would be something worth being upset about if it meant that dogs without this training method would never learn to chase, but I have no idea if that’s the case, you haven’t expressed that concern. I would assume they put a blanket ban on all organic lures to prevent people circumnavigating a live baiting ban by, for example, killing a possum first, and then using it as bait, claiming it was road kill. Or even killing and… Read more »
100% spot on and the knee jerk reactions in all 3 states when a measured, consistent response was required have been an embarrassment for the whole industry. Amateurish at best by the administrations that will no doubt lead to expensive legal proceedings that the long suffering innocent participants will ultimately pay for.
Of course they should. Everyone is sick of the whole industry being tarred with the same brush.
So true. Lets look at it at another way. No one is condoning what has occurred, but as one prominent politician has said, what about these people breaking the laws to get this footage, meaning breaking into and trespassing on peoples properties to illegally set up and video and audio spy cameras. Last time I checked they were serious criminal offences. Is it just a case of authorities turning a blind eye to certain crimes. I wonder if the illegal videoing and taping of a judge, politician or some other prominent person was done there would be an outcry. As… Read more »
The people that have been breached need to report a trespass to the police. Unless that has happened, police can not get involved.
Why because I exercise my right of free speech. I believe in tge rule of the law for all so every one is treated equally, not just when some people think it should be. A means does not justify an end.
Lets look at it another way. If your industry had policed itself properly activists wouldn’t have had to resort to the actions they did to bring this issue to light. Pretty weak to cry about trespassing when if it weren’t for that trespassing people like Noble, McDonald and Mills would still be live baiting right now. Is that your preferred scenario? Because if you want the the activists punished then you are basically saying you wish these things never came to light. If that’s your stance, then you don’t have much credibility in this debate. There are many circumstances under… Read more »
I think this is a pretty weak article considering that you a) don’t know if the footage has been requested b) have no idea how extensive the footage is and are assuming there is hours upon hours of people going about their business correctly. You could at least contact GRV for comment before making a bunch of assumptions and getting on your soap box. I also think you have a misunderstanding of people’s outrage if you think that showing footage of people not breaking the rules is going to somehow improve the sport’s image. The reason that people will cast… Read more »
@Mr Dimbledore Really? You think the “knee jerk reaction” is what’s embarrassing for your industry right now? Wow.
Hi Duncan it is against the rule for greyhounds to trial on an unregistered trial track. see cut and paste. It has been very hard to find the GRNSW reference to what trial tracks are registered. I was able to find a list for 2010 on goggle which picked up the registered trial tracks. (the reference came from the GRNSW dogs news archives) I got the list prior to the four corners investigation and my research was history based. If it is complicated for researchers to find lists of registered trial tracks what change has others got. Also the local… Read more »
Hugh_ Spot on but it is human for the innocent to grieve. The courts will decide the conduct of the various interests and allow or disallow evidence accordingly.
I hope the sentence if appropriate takes into account the Western Australia case of extreme cruelty where the person involved got 800 hours community penalty. Jail time works out at to about per day and community service costs less that 10% to administer.
Good debate, The appointment of the ex high court judge in NSW with Royal Commission powers and the former SC assisting the ICAC Greyhound Inquiry previously will walk carefully through the minefield of civil rights you have mentioned.
I think numbers should be released, how many seperate people trailed to how many charged, that would show that it is a minority
Really great PR strategy, Duncan! “Ooh, look over here. We have hours and hours of video footage of greyhound trainers NOT committing criminal acts! And if you enjoy watching that, we have some more footage of paint drying on a wall that will really fascinate you.”
RufusLelevrier The best way to vote for greyhound racing is to turn up at the forums and inquiries. There were a good turn up of officials at the Temora Greyhounds last Sunday as well as at Cessnock.
John Tracey Hugh_ Absolutely, it’s only natural to feel that way and totally understandable. But it’s not a smart PR strategy, that’s my point. The emotional reaction and the smart reaction are rarely the same thing. Recognise the view of the public, and respond appropriately. Whether or not you agree with public perception doesn’t change the fact that you have to deal with it. Public perception matters – Not only because the public puts pressure on politicians, but because the public actually has the right to an opinion given that they pay taxes. If you’re in an industry that is partially… Read more »
Given that the investigation is still underway, it’s probably a bit premature for that. Authorities are acting on more than just that video footage, they will be trying to uncover the extent of the problem and no doubt following many leads. When it’s all done and dusted, and people have been charged, people within the industry will be free to point out the number of people the industry employs and what percentage of wrongdoers were actually found.
Hugh_ Hi Hugh, Firstly I would like to thank you for the way in which you have put your point across and I as a greyhound owner agree with most things which you have written however I will counter your claim of “condemning activists = wishing this practice was never brought to light”. For myself condemning activists = condemning hypocrisy because the same people have no trouble whatsoever in supporting child and slave labour in most if not all major retail outlets throughout the world. The reason they don’t worry about changing their shopping habits is simply because it would affect… Read more »
Hugh_ John Tracey Agree with you totally it is a matter of balance and timing. The wider public interest , as mentioned in other posts”, will come later when cool heads will prevail.
The best thing that we can do to support greyhound racing is to turn up to meetings and inquiries.” A picture is worth a thousand words”
Congratulations to the two hundred who turned up to hear the Government appointed CEO of GRNSW in the Hunter, you “voted” for greyhound racing.
@Brad Hugh_ Hey Brad, thanks for your thoughts and opinions, I think this is an important debate to have. I too hate hypocrisy, I think we all do. I think anyone who lives in relative luxury in the western world and tries to live a good moral existence has to feel somewhat conflicted due to the huge disparity in wealth across the globe. Especially since our luxurious western lifestyle is somewhat built upon the backs of poorly paid workers in the developing world, who are overworked and have little opportunity to improve their circumstance. So I sympathise with what you are… Read more »
John Tracey Hugh_ I agree 100%, and I really hope that people’s displeasure with the governing bodies doesn’t prevent them from attending various meetings. And If anything I would imagine it would encourage people to discuss their concerns. The more this issue is discussed as a group the better, and it would be a shame if some people engage in the process while another segment turns their back on it.
Hugh_ John Tracey An anthropologist pointed out to me that the “guilty: think that everyone is up to what they are doing and the others think the opposite is the case. The prompt to a published debate on the subject prior to the Florida legislation making blooding of greyhounds a criminal office in the 1980’s follows and shows that one party regards blooding as being 10% effective and 90% negative while the supporters of blooding state that 95% of trainers do it. My early historical notes supports blooding being overall ineffective and I can give many examples. Greyhounds are sight and… Read more »
Yes agreed……… so far there has been nothing positive come out of this
Hugh_ Hi Hugh, Thank you for your considered reply. However what you need to remember is that I have already stated that I agree with many of your points I did however disagree with your equation which you have since amended. The amendment I have no problem with and you are right. I have no gripe against the footage shown on 4 Corners or how it was obtained and I am not debating this. I don’t care that it was done illegally as it is the lesser of two evils. If the actions were not being undertaken by these particular… Read more »