Misleading greyhound figures still being fed to NSW public
THE New South Wales Government is spreading an anti-greyhound racing campaign across a variety of media outlets, leaving participants angry about ‘not getting a fair go’.
In a blatant attempt to justify shutting down greyhound racing to an enraged public, the campaign includes full page notices in the Daily Telegraph, as well as radio advertisements.
While many in the industry have acknowledged the wrongdoings of the past, the campaign has further enraged a devastated greyhound community, with many of the facts being advertised coming from the McHugh report released last month, which now has serious questions surrounding its accuracy.
NSW Greyhound Breeders Owners and Trainers Association (GBOTA) CEO Brenton Scott told The Guardian Australia earlier this week he believes the campaigns are a misuse of taxpayer money.
“I cannot recall a Government ever using public funds to protest against a community like ours in this way,” Scott said.
“We have every right to be stating our position for maintaining the industry, and for the Government to use public funds to come out and reinforce information which we have said is false is outlandish, outrageous and unprecedented.”
The print and radio promotions both state that up to 70 per cent of greyhounds are deemed wastage by the industry and 4074 dogs are ‘slaughtered’ each year. However, figures from the NSW Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance show the actual amount is less than 10 per cent of that inflated amount.
Greyhound Racing NSW (GRNSW) figures submitted to the Special Commission of Inquiry indicated only 6.9 per cent of greyhounds are unnecessarily, humanely euthanised, with other allocations of dogs being 55.4 per cent remaining with owners/trainers or being re-homed, 12.7 per cent humanely euthanised due to injury or illness and 25 per cent dying from natural causes.
The Government further demonised the industry by stating that, due to it’s systemic cruelty, greyhound racing is only legal in eight countries, with the majority of the states in the US having imposed a ban.
Once again, this information is incorrect, with Australian Racing Greyhound’s Duncan Stearn clarifying that there has never been a time where the majority of the USA conducted greyhound racing, while he also highlighted that only two states from 50 have outlawed the sport – Idaho and Arizona.
This information was further supported by the Alliance, which sourced it from Gary Guccione, Executive Director of the USA National Greyhound Association.
Furthermore, the NSW Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance clarified following the first print advertisement that greyhound racing is legal worldwide – with only the two aforementioned American states having imposed a ban.
The Government’s campaign also states the average life of a racing greyhound is 1.5 years compared with nine years for a pet greyhound.
Participants on social media declared this comment was made despite the fact dogs are not able to commence racing until they are at least 16 months of age, with many continuing their careers until after four. The Alliance noted that a high number of greyhounds live happy and full lives post-racing, with dogs commonly living well into their ‘teen’ years.
Despite the campaigns also declaring that rabbits, pigs and possums are subjected to live baiting, the Alliance has indicated that the industry has zero tolerance for the abhorrent practice, with those found guilty of live baiting receiving life bans from the sport.
The main smoking gun used by the NSW Government, a report by ABC’s Four Corners program, resulted in very little action taken against live baiters because footage taken had been done so illegally. The people shown in the tape are unable to be persecuted because of surveillance and privacy laws in NSW.
Greyhound racing enthusiasts are keen to have these laws changed so those who are found to be doing the wrong thing can be prosecuted, rather than ostracised publicly, before ultimately not being charged with any offences.
Prominent broadcaster Ray Hadley was quick to slam the Premier Mike Baird for focusing on rumours that live baiting still exists within the industry, calling for enhanced laws to enable authorities to catch and persecute those engaging in the activity.
“Yes it’s horrendous, yes it’s dreadful, yes it shouldn’t have happened, but there has been no opportunity for Greyhound Racing New South Wales because of legislation under the Surveillance Act 2005 to remove these people from greyhound racing,” Hadley said on 2GB.
“[Mike Baird] could change that with the snap of a finger and give them the power to get rid of the cheats and the thieves and the hoons from the industry and leave the 80-90-95% of decent people to get on with their lives – but that doesn’t suit his agenda.”
The advertisements also proclaimed that 136 greyhounds die each year while racing, but according to GRNSW’s Quarterly Greyhound Racing Injury Report, only two greyhounds suffered catastrophic injuries while racing between January 1, 2016, and March 31, 2016, and were deceased or required immediate euthanasia.
Additionally, the campaign claims that one in five greyhounds are injured throughout their careers, however in the same time period mentioned above the injury rate was 11.2 per cent. This includes minor issues such as small nicks, and muscle strain – common injuries which are sustained by greyhounds on and off the track as a result of them reaching speeds of up to 70 kilometres per hour.
The Government has attained its information for the campaigns from the Special Commission of Inquiry report tabled by Justice Michael McHugh, despite serious doubts emerging about its accuracy.
Subsequently, the NSW Greyhound Racing Industry Alliance has made an application to the NSW Supreme Court in order to have the document declared invalid.
Baird’s desperation to “win” has now seen him prepared to squander the tax payers money taking out advertisements. Surely this money could be better spent on education or health. A serious ego seriously out of control advertising the fact using the public purse.
HEDLEY THOMAS
National Chief CorrespondentBrisbane
The Baird government’s public inquiry into greyhound racing did not publicly examine, display or report on work by a senior professor who documented a model he says would have cut animal “wastage” to almost zero.
The inquiry relied instead on a different model from Greyhound Racing NSW, which is regarded by its own staff as having “run dead” under Premier Mike Baird’s interim appointee as chief executive for the past 16 months, Paul Newson.
Percy Allan, an economist, the state’s former secretary of the Treasury and the chairman of GRNSW for nine years until 2012, said yesterday as a result of the narrow analysis, the unacceptable wastage of greyhounds was presented as a major problem that could not be properly addressed.
He said if Mr Baird had been advised that wastage could have been severely limited and successfully managed in a significantly streamlined industry with fewer greyhounds at fewer venues, there would have been no need to ban the industry from next July. Industry experts say the ban will lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of dogs and the loss of hundreds of jobs.
“The absence (from the inquiry) of an alternative model that would have shown the way to achieve zero wastage must have influenced the government’s decision,’’ said Professor Allan.
“It was very odd of the inquiry to completely ignore my modelling. I was left with the impression that they weren’t interested in considering an alternative solution,” he told The Weekend Australian yesterday.
“I sent it to the inquiry (last November), and I followed it up. They definitely got it. But they did not raise it with me once (during evidence) or come back to me about it. The only things that got posted on the inquiry’s website or presented as exhibits were those that (counsel assisting) Stephen Rushton wanted to use as part of his case.
“I’m an economist and my modelling, while high-level, was not something done on the back of an envelope.”
Professor Allan said because the assumptions in the GRNSW model were “primitive” and did not contemplate major changes in the volume of racing, the result was still a high level of wastage. The unnecessary deaths of uncompetitive greyhounds was flagged by the inquiry as a major reason for the recommended closure of the NSW industry.
Mr Rushton, who advocated closure in his opening address before any witnesses were heard in public, has not responded to numerous claims the inquiry under the chairmanship of former High Court judge Michael McHugh QC was biased and unfair.
Former and serving GRNSW staff confirmed yesterday they are making complaints to the Independent Commission Against Corruption, claiming Mr Newson has acted against the interests of the million-plus industry by allegedly colluding with Mr Baird’s office to promote closure.
Mr Newson told staff in a new memo leaked to The Weekend Australian: “While there has been a lot of media discussion about my role in the government’s decision, I can assure you that I have always acted in the best interests of GRNSW.”
He criticised leaks to The Australian of sensitive documents, which highlighted alleged bias by the public inquiry and the view of GRNSW staff that Mr Newson was deliberately not fighting to save the industry. He warned more investigations would be launched if leaks continued.
In a July 19 letter headed “Private and confidential” and sent directly to Mr Baird and Deputy Premier Troy Grant, Mr Newson enclosed secret documents and wrote: “I am providing this report to you to facilitate debate in parliament with the closure of the greyhound racing industry in NSW.”lass
Stud Dog
………..I HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING THIS TYPE OF MODEL FOR YEARS. AND I AM NO ECONOMIST EITHER……..
Irrespective of whether the report is flawed or not, there is no precedent for the concept of ‘social licence’. It holds no legal definition nor any common law interpretation.
At the end of the day there are two outcomes from the challenge: Outcome 1 – The report from the special commission of inquiry is seen as flawed/inaccurate/biased and invalidated. If not Outcome 1, then Outcome 2 – that Recommendation 1 in the (if judged to be valid) report is invalid meaning that the other recommendations 2-79 hold weight.
If the report is valid, then the first recommendation is invalid or the entire report is flawed and the number of inccuracies and special interests biasing the report renders the entire body of work invalid.
The racing industry does NOT have accurate statistics on the lives of their greyhounds. They have never tracked them from “cradle to grave”. All they have are whelping and litter data, registration and naming figures, on-track injury and death data (the latter being highly suspect because of the historical lack of transparency and honesty in the stewards’ reports), and data from their own tiny adoption program. Everything else is from self-reported (and self-serving) data from non-scientific surveys of industry participants.
One need only consider the laughable (and purportedly accurate to one decimal point!) “statistic” that 55.4 per cent of greyhounds remain with their owners and trainers after their racing days are over, or are adopted out! If this were true, the industry should be readily able to publish photographs of the giant herds of tens of thousands of ex-racing greyhounds, roaming the countryside and clogging the urban parks!
And talk about “misleading figures”! To say with a straight face that greyhound racing is banned in only two states in the USA is so absurd that it can be nothing less than a deliberate attempt to deceive. The “greyhound racing” that has been banned in almost every state of the union is the commercial, parimutuel-based greyhound racing industry — exactly what New South Wales proposes to ban. These bans have been enacted for various reasons in various states — to fight corruption and organized crime; to curb gambling activity; or out of animal welfare concerns.
In at least 48 of the 50 states it is perfectly legal for owners of greyhounds or any other dog to get together and have dog races for their mutual entertainment or sport, but organized gambling on those races is forbidden. But TO SUGGEST THAT COMMERCIAL DOG RACING IS LEGAL IN THOSE STATES IS FALSE. Of the other 2 states mentioned, Idaho has banned all forms of dog racing – a fact that was confirmed not long ago when a so-called “wiener-dog” racing charity event had to be cancelled because of the strict wording of the legislation. I don’t believe Arizona has similar legislation, but it definitely banned commercial parimutuel dog racing earlier this year.
Jason Caley Read the McHugh Commission report for a discussion and explanation of the concept of social licence. It is widely and wrongly believed that McHugh made a legal “finding” that the greyhound racing industry had lost its social licence, but he did not do that. He expressly left it up to the NSW legislators to decide that issue, in his first Recommendation. Social licence is not a legal concept but a political, social, and moral one. It is properly a matter to be applied by elected legislators in forming social policy. And that is exactly what the NSW legislators are in the process of doing.
JeffWhite4 ..STRAIGHT AWAY,YOUR ARGUMENT IS SO FLAWED. DO NOT NEED TO GO ANY FURTHER READING THAT JIBBERISH,BECAUSE YOU HAVE AGREED THERE IS NO ACCURATE FIGURES BY GRNSW.
because there was no figures kept for the point you are trying to base your EXPERT THEORIES ON. do I need to repeat myself?
so, if we don’t have those types of figures, NEITHER DOES ANY ONE ELSE SON………..so,the groups like you participate with,get out the ABACUS and ask your kids to TRY AND CALCULATE A GUESTIMATE FIGURE SO YOU CAN BIG NOTE YOURSELF AND MAKE RIDICULOUS PREDICTIONS.
start thinking with your brain fool,not your mouth…… THINK before you blubber off drivel like you write.
read what I said again………..THEY DID NOT EXIST AT ALL………..figures did not exist…..get it?
SO, YOU START AGAIN AND STOP BEING DRAMATIC. BUT DO YOUR PROPER HOMEWORK FIRST.
JeffWhite4 QUOTE………….
”……………..
”and data from their own tiny adoption program”…………………..
SO I SEE THIS AS SELECTIVE PICKING JEFF.
one minute you are discussing AUSTRALIA WIDE FIGURES,now you have narrowed down the ADOPTION PROGRAM to only,i would suggest you are refering to NSW(yes u are)..yep selective figures . would you like to clarify are you debating about AUSTRALIA WIDE,or basing ya crap on just one state?
BUT REMEMBER TO BASE WHATEVER YOU ARE TRYING TO GET ACROSS AS ALL OR ONE……..simplistic question one would think.
AND AS FAR AS YOUR PUTTY MADE ARGUMENTS ABOUT USA STATS ETC;, BASE YOUR ARGUMENT ON ONE COUNTRY AT A TIME….THE ISSUE IS HERE,NOT FREEKIN ‘USA….I see that as useless in any argument, it is just as useless as ERNIE from snow blown CANADA.
JeffWhite4 Jason Caley CHRIST YOU ARE DUMB AND BLIND.
THE REPORT IS A KIDS ESSAY WRITTEN BY A RETIRED 83y.o WHO WAS DRAGGED KICKING OUT OF HIS COMFORTABLE OLD TIMERS HOME TO APPEAR FOR A FEW MILLION POCKET MONEY,AND A QC WHO HAS NOT SURFACED SINCE AND WHOSE SOLE INTENT WAS TO GET IT SHUT DOWN,IN CONJUNCTION WITH A CORRUPTED DAYDREAMING PREMIER DREAMING OF BEING KIM YUN,LEADING A MINSTERS LIFE IN AN ANGLICAN CHURCH,THAT IS INFAMOUS FOR SEXUAL MOLESTATION,AND HAVING FOR HIS FRIENDS,A DOG PUMPING SEX PERVERT…………well, I believe in the TOOTH FAIRY as well.
THIS KILLS HARRY POTTER AND LORD OF THE RINGS FOR SERIES RENEWALS……………..oh,but its ok, we understand, you are an activist with connections to ACTIVIST GROUPS, one being AA, that was co-founded by……….THE SAME DOG BANGER AS I LAID POINT TO BEFORE…………yep, I remember JONES TOWN TO………look what happened to all its followers…………BOOM.
everyone listen carefully to this. very carefully.
JOHN, can you explain the role of the GOVERNMENT WHIP?
SO,IT IS NOT ABOUT THE WELFARE ISSUES AT ALL…….ITS DISTRIBUTION OF FINANCES FROM TAB ETC;
AA NOW CHALLENGE VINCE ALL YOU LIKE,VERIFY IT BY AUDIENCING WITH THE GOVERNMENT WHIP…………LISTEN VERY CLOSELY DAVE/JEFF/AARON.
and it all fits in because the HORSE INDUSRTY wasteage on a ratio basis in comparison with greyhound racing IS WAY WORSE,WAY WORSE.
SO NOW BAIRD IS OBVIOUSLY SACRIFICING GREYHOUND RACING FOR BOTH HORSE CODES FOR AN OBVIOUS CORRUPTION GAIN……..TO SUIT WHOM?
THE TAPE OF V’LANDY’s EXPRESSING THAT 2 MONTHS BEFORE IT WAS ANNOUNCED BY BAIRD HE WAS SHUTTING IT DOWN,AT A CONFERENCE,SO THEY HAD CONCOCTED THE WELFARE ISSUE TO PUSH THERE CASE.
IF YOU WANTED A WAR BETWEEN THE CODES,YOU NOW HAVE IT V’LANDY’S.
AND LEGAL COUNSEL WILL HAVE A BALL WITH THIS ONE……SO HOW DOES BAIRD FIX THIS STUFF UP?
DOES HE PAY THE GREYHOUND ITS RIGHTFUL DISTRIBUTION SHARE, AND HAVE THE HORSE CODES SCREAMING FOR COMPENSATION, OR DOES HE SLAUGHTER ONE FOR THE OTHERS?
HIS GOVERNMENT POSITION IS NOW TAINTED AND HE IS IN MAJOR STRIFE IF THIS GOES TO SUPREME COURT WHERE HE HAS TO EXPLAIN AND BE TRUTHFUL.
I AM LOVING IT AS EVERYDAY GOES BY.
AND IF YOU CAN,GO TO GDATA SITE UNDER THE MAIN TOPIC OF GREYHOUND RACING FINISHED………HEAPS OD INFORMATION,BUT FIND THE VIDEO ON EXTERNAL LINK WHERE A MOCK OF BAIRD WAS DONE THAT HAS GONE VIRAL……..AND SOMEONE FROM NSW SENT POLICE FROM VICTORIA TO AUTHORS ADDRESS AND ASKED TO REMOVE IT…HE REFUSED AND ITS GROWING IN HUGE SUPPORT.
WONDER WHO THE SOOKY BOOKY WAS……..MIKE?
JeffWhite4 Jason Caley Exactly the issue, _”Social licence is not a legal concept but a political, social and moral one” not a criminal matter and even a civil law matter. The Government has the power under existing legislation to cancel racecourse licences and expose themselves to adequate compensation so why did they not go down this line instead of belittling and penalising a lot of decent citizens?.
This dog’s breakfast has been caused by the Premier jumping the gun and convincing his cabinet to support him. A special commission of enquiry and or a Royal commission can shine light on dark corners by relaxing some natural justice requirements but also legislators need to factor in that eventually decisions have to be made allowing for statutory rules in relation to fairness. The IAC president on the 7.30PM report last night talked about the decision not to ban Russia from the Olympic Games, the rationale was that innocent should not placed on them the collective responsibility for the criminal actions and cultures of others.
There are mixed opinions about why the Premier is acting the way he is doing and a lot are negative as well as some positive. If the battle is a class war involving political, social and moral issues then Greyhound Racing is doing the right thing by fighting it on the grounds that they are doing at the moment.
The Premier’s possible assumption that he could monster the greyhound industry in either the guise of his concern for a small part of the animal welfare problem or whether some of the other theories for his actions are true matters little. The public reaction on the ground sees his support by the anti-greyhound lobby’s rally’s small attendances dwarfed by the others.
While Royal Commissions/special commissions of inquiries have powers to relax rules there is an expectation they should not stink to high heaven.
Well hasn’t our Jeff worked himself up – must have spent Friday night entertaining his “intellectual” friends who were actually getting a bit annoyed with his obsession because they wanted to talk about how much more their house in Sydney was worth now. Yes after knocking back some expensive wine fear that bogans might be about to take over the world and the horror that these people might actually get justice, started to take over his mind. Well fear of a lower class rising has seen him consulting chapters 2,3 and 4 of the draft of his new book “Jeff’s Freaking Boring Facts Book”.
All is not lost though Jeff you can cut and paste the hysterical “facts” onto your new website “Jeff’s Solutions to Sleep problems.”
dogem53 JeffWhite4 Jason Caley Dogem53. Understand that you are stretching the envelope on poetic licence but can we have the film rights or could we to make an opera out of your post. At least can we put it to music. great satire but from the point of a factual check I think that the Judge is 80 only, I would accept the replacement of 83 yo with Octogenarian. Maybe I am a bit sensitive as I am approaching this age myself. The person you refer to as the AA founder was he n last Mondays QA on the ABC. (There was someone who appeared a bit unhinged on the show).
dogem53 JeffWhite4 Jason Caley McHugh made 80 recommendations and only one was to shut down the industry. The fact he bothered to outline 79 ways to improve the industry suggests he was being reasonable, even suggesting a greater share of the TAB go to the greyhounds he also had had the decency to admit to errors which shows a certain strength of character. I think Baird just used him as well.
Rushton on the other hand who was really running the show and interestingly nowhere to be seen lately, is a whole different matter. I believe I have already outlined my views on this person and his disgraceful misuse of public money.
The Australian12:00AM August 6, 2016
HEDLEY THOMAS
National Chief Correspondent Brisbane
The Baird government’s public inquiry into greyhound racing did not publicly examine, display or report on work by a senior professor who documented a model he says would have cut animal “wastage” to almost zero.
The inquiry relied instead on a different model from Greyhound Racing NSW, which is regarded by its own staff as having “run dead” under Premier Mike Baird’s interim appointee as chief executive for the past 16 months, Paul Newson.
Percy Allan, an economist, the state’s former secretary of the Treasury and the chairman of GRNSW for nine years until 2012, said yesterday as a result of the narrow analysis, the unacceptable wastage of greyhounds was presented as a major problem that could not be properly addressed.
He said if Mr Baird had been advised that wastage could have been severely limited and successfully managed in a significantly streamlined industry with fewer greyhounds at fewer venues, there would have been no need to ban the industry from next July. Industry experts say the ban will lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of dogs and the loss of hundreds of jobs.
“The absence (from the inquiry) of an alternative model that would have shown the way to achieve zero wastage must have influenced the government’s decision,’’ said Professor Allan.
“It was very odd of the inquiry to completely ignore my modelling. I was left with the impression that they weren’t interested in considering an alternative solution,” he told The Weekend Australian yesterday.
“I sent it to the inquiry (last November), and I followed it up. They definitely got it. But they did not raise it with me once (during evidence) or come back to me about it. The only things that got posted on the inquiry’s website or presented as exhibits were those that (counsel assisting) Stephen Rushton wanted to use as part of his case.
“I’m an economist and my modelling, while high-level, was not something done on the back of an envelope.”
Professor Allan said because the assumptions in the GRNSW model were “primitive” and did not contemplate major changes in the volume of racing, the result was still a high level of wastage. The unnecessary deaths of uncompetitive greyhounds was flagged by the inquiry as a major reason for the recommended closure of the NSW industry.
Mr Rushton, who advocated closure in his opening address before any witnesses were heard in public, has not responded to numerous claims the inquiry under the chairmanship of former High Court judge Michael McHugh QC was biased and unfair.
Former and serving GRNSW staff confirmed yesterday they are making complaints to the Independent Commission Against Corruption, claiming Mr Newson has acted against the interests of the million-plus industry by allegedly colluding with Mr Baird’s office to promote closure.
Mr Newson told staff in a new memo leaked to The Weekend Australian: “While there has been a lot of media discussion about my role in the government’s decision, I can assure you that I have always acted in the best interests of GRNSW.”
He criticised leaks to The Australian of sensitive documents, which highlighted alleged bias by the public inquiry and the view of GRNSW staff that Mr Newson was deliberately not fighting to save the industry. He warned more investigations would be launched if leaks continued.
In a July 19 letter headed “Private and confidential” and sent directly to Mr Baird and Deputy Premier Troy Grant, Mr Newson enclosed secret documents and wrote: “I am providing this report to you to facilitate debate in parliament with the closure of the greyhound racing industry in NSW.”
Deborah555 ABSOLUTELY BORED WITH HIS SAME DIRECTION. IT HAS NO BASIS,NO IMPETUS,NO REAL FACTS,AND ITS NOW RUNNING OUT OF STEAM.
IT IS ONE THING FOR SURE THOUGH……*********BORING************
John Tracey dogem53 JeffWhite4 Jason Caley LOL………my humblest apologies JOHN. no way would I put-down oldies,i am heading very quickly in that direction myself,but plenty of tongue in cheek satire aimed at as much mass destruction as I can conjure up JOHN.
MOVIE RIGHTS,ANOTHER ISSUE.
we certainly could make one and call it CONNECTIONS!!!!!
JeffWhite4 Jason Caley Jeff why don’t you read the other 79 recommendations McHugh outlined to make the industry viable into the future -you just cannot seem to get past recommendation one. McHugh is a retired high court judge he would NEVER have made any suggestion he had made a legal “finding” As for widely and wrongly believed by who? You appear to be just making this up as you go along. I am sure McHugh is well aware of the concept of separation of powers and given this was not a High Court decision made by the full bench of judges, it was a special (very special) commission I doubt too much legal precedent could be set from that.
dogem53 John Tracey JeffWhite4 Jason Caley What’s the story line for Connections dogem53- humble premier haunted by visions of rabbit on lure ( and checking with a junior staffer on how to spell compassion for a press release) decides that his only solution is to sell every income generating asset in NSW, cut funding to health and education, fail to consult any of his backbenchers, take the view that separation of powers means he has all the power and then when questioned spends public money taking out ads?
or is more a Disney type theme. Four goofy dog pals the red setter from the RSPCA, the pug in charge of the racing board, the kelpie with a learning disability who has seen the light about agriculture Deputy Dogg all doing their obedient dog routine before their Mighty master ( a Pomeranian with delusions of grandeur and probably a Cluster B personality disorder)
Deborah555 dogem53 John Tracey JeffWhite4 Jason Caley It is limitless but we need to tie doggem53 to contracts because the Premiers department will be headhunting him to run their class war.LOL
On a more serious note I contribute to a gazette that encourages creative writing by suggesting a word and asking subscribers to write or draw a response. The word this month is POWER. I will ask them to put up the word FREEDOM and if it is alright I will forward dogem’s post to them. The publication is done in Melbourne and they are not generally as robust as us but they might print it.
Deborah as you are aware the word freedom comes from the old English and was formed about the same time as sight hounds were used as companion animals in hunting the forerunner to coursing and then tin hare racing. The changing of the meaning of freedom over this period reflects as parallel cultural history with the greyhounds history. The current meaning includes being able to have access to whatever others can.
John Tracey Deborah555 dogem53 JeffWhite4 Jason Caley John good idea with the contract, great idea with the submission as long as Dogem53 is okay about it and I was not aware of the derivation of the word freedom and I found it interesting to know that -thanks.
Deborah555 John Tracey dogem53 JeffWhite4 Jason Caley Thanks Deborah the history research on the book we are producing on th greyhounds briefly goes to pick up the original companion dogs at the same time the middle english and old English word for freedom is evolving it meant mainly freedom from slavery and then Freedom from obligation to the landholder (Norman Conquest) and today it includes et al. freedom of speech, freedom to access information and freedom of equal opportunity et al. If your interested further there is a good account n Google. My uncle was a specialist in
Etymology but unfortunately he has passed.
Deborah555 dogem53 John Tracey JeffWhite4 Jason Caley EXQUISITE TASTE THERE DEB.well thought out, gives me an idea for a further attack using (IN A WHISPER TONE) DOGGIE AMMUNITION….A VERY POPULAR TOPIC AMONG AA PEOPLE,BUT KEEP IT UNDER YOUR WIG….OOPS,HAT.
John Tracey Deborah555 dogem53 JeffWhite4 Jason Caley JOHN.
SHOW ME THE MONEY CLAUSE…………..LOL
by all means john,a bit of banter among friends never hurt anyone.
some will sook up,but we get the gist hey.
one rule though JOHN…….NOW WAY TOM CRUISE ROLES ME……NO WAY…..A SCIENTOLOGIST AND ME,NEVER ON SON. MIGHT AS WELL HAVE ME EATEN BY LIONS THAN ASSOCIATE WITH THAT …..WELL LETS JUST SAY, PERSON.
CRIKEY, I AM GETTING EGOTISTIC AS MR. KIM YUN BAIRD……I AM AFFECTED BY ALL THIS GLITZ AND GLAMOUR AND TALK OF MILLIONS……BAIRDY BOY,MATE, GOT A FEW MILLION TO THROW MY WAY?
YOU GIVE IT TO EVERYONE ELSE,WHY NOT ME……….PLEASE!!!!
COMMENT NEEDING ASSESSMENT…………….
JOHN/DEB,AND ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
I am reading on GDATA some violent words in regards to lack of support by the group set up to be the voice of the industry.(BRENT SCOTT’S UNITY)
what I see as totally wrong in some of the posters topics,is the continual concern of what an ADVERT IN A PAPER,OR ON A RADIO STATION,has with the outcome of whether PARLIAMENTARIANS WHO WILL VOTE ON GREYHOUND RACINGS EXISTENCE, NOT THE PUBLIC ONE IOTA.
yes they may get an email of support, BUT IT IS NOT THE PUBLIC WHO MAKES THE FINAL DECISION. I AM CORRECT ON THIS?
even if lost in PARLIAMENT,the next step is SUPREME COURT,the best likely situation for us…….not whether MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT YEY OR NEY US.
SO BAIRD CAN SPEND AS MUCH AS HE LIKES TRYING TO CONVINCE THE PUBLIC,IT IS ACTUALLY WASTEAGE OF THE PUBLICS FUNDS, BECAUSE THE PUBLIC CANNOT VOTE ON IT.THEY CAN HAVE AN OPINION,BUT THEY CANNOT HAVE A VOTE. SO WHY THE TANTRUMS IN THIS REGARD.
COMMENT PLEASE.
dogem53
totally agree with what you say.
JeffWhite4
It can also be said that your claim about how many dogs are ‘wasted’ is also misleading. You haven’t got the figures Jeff so don’t go round making whacky claims.
dogem53 I am not sure which GDATA reference you are referring to – I think Brenton and the GBOTA have done a marvellous job – maybe the trolls are over there causing trouble they seem to have disappeared from here lately. The tantrums are all about Baird’s ego he is coping criticism from everyone including traditional supporters. He has to win and he does not care who he takes down to do it. Baird thought he could just make the call and now he has discovered it is not going to be as easy as he thought. Yes obviously didn’t learn anything when Abbott decided he could run the country on the Captain’s call model.
dogem53 PS he is starting to try to convince the public because he is worried about how many people are emailing their local members and these members must be worrying about their chances of re-election and putting pressure on him. That’s my two theories I will leave the rest to a better authority over to you John.
dogem53 Yes I didn’t realise quite the importance of the tab turnover until I started to read Jason Caley’s posts and then it twigged just how important it was. More evidence really that this is class warfare. I still think Wentworth park land values and Baird’s need for support of the greens and of course his out of control ego are still all part of this decision.
Deborah555 dogem53 The coalition partners must now realize that by supporting Baird on the closure of the greyhound industry that he will bring them all down with him. Just knew it was about money.
Like to be a fly on the wall.
who is STEVEN BROMHEAD MP.
an insight to the gent,or MP, that VINCE CASSAR DEBATED WITH ON THAT RECORDING.
INTERESTING EXERT FROM ABOVE;
Stephen is the founder of the Manning/Great Lakes Traffic Offenders Program. This program aims to not only educate drivers referred to it from Court, but also to change their behaviour. Since the introduction of the course there has been a marked reduction in driver recidivism.
NOTE…..”TO CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOUR”…….
so, even the MP BROMHEAD, sees that some things need REFORMING,and firmly believes that change can be successful!!!!
lone widow Deborah555 dogem53 Lets hope they are worried enough about their seats to do something about him
Deborah555 dogem53 DEB, it was known months ago RNSW was in financial strife,and still is.
after rebuilding the ROSEHILL CIRCUIT at huge costs,when they could not afford it mind you,it was written-up that they were in real strife.they were questioned time and time again why reconstruct when finance was not there?
rumors were abounding the ARABS were in the background(recall BAIRD being queried of his connection to two brothers and there ARAB families at the time) so maybe SOME PAYBACK IN THE FORM OF A PARTICULAR PIECE OF REAL ESTATE,is repayment???? that was documented back then,but with this upheaval of evidence,there just may be something in that story.
so V’LANDYS is someones bitch.
and to think the ANIMAL ACTIVISTS thought it was them motivating BAIRD. WRONG,now they have been duped,and NEWSON texting GREY2K was what BAIRD wanted EVEN HIM TO BELIEVE THE REASON WAS WELFARE. HE WAS DUPED AS WELL….
F…. politics and politicians. I was close a while back when I said CAR SALES MEN were the lowest form, but along came ANGLICAN/CATHOLIC PRIESTS, who have been now dethroned by the biggest crooks of all……..LPNSW…..I bow my head in disgust and vomit on the ground…..just outside the gates of WENTY PARK.
Deborah555 dogem53 Great Question, you asked for opinion so I will give the facts that I think are relevant.
My overview is that the alliance group is correct in what they are doing but it is very expensive exercise and if I had a comment to make I would say need to collect funds quickly.
The Overseas posters who are supporting Grey2k have assessed the situation correctly in my view, with the following comment.
“Social licence is not a legal concept but a political, social, and moral one. It is properly a matter to be applied by elected legislators in forming social policy.”
The problem for the Government is that the social license that is talked about is based on American culture not Anglo culture that we follow. For example American at some level see prohibition over regulation where we do not, America has all ty pes of prohibition in a variety of States.
A bigger problem for the Government is its support on the ground is failing as the Greyhound issue is an issue concerning much deeper matters than just greyhounds alone. The greyhound issue is the “canary in the coal mine”.
Under normal political circumstances a large March on Parliament House by the greyhound interests and the small earlier rallies by the Animal welfare industry would have seem an about turn by the Government on its resolve to cut out greyhound racing but for whatever reason the Premier acts more like a brutal CEO than a Governor. These CEO’s stick to their decisions and usually resign is the going gets too tough (we have had them in Greyhound Racing Administration. It is remotely possible that the Premier go to greater things or maybe their could be face saving if they can make the administrator of Greyhound racing a further fall guy although this would be difficult as he is already being attacked by the press, his own staff former and previous in GRNSW and the greyhound industry as well. It would only be a small step for the whole of parliament to attack him as well.
The most brilliant incident which has gone the way of greyhounds (and in my opinion the democracy) is the CEO of GRNSW and he premiers department bungling everything in their application regarding the Labor party pin up participant . and also linking Grey2k and their influence on the Premier with tweets from the legislative replacement of the gRNSW board , the CEO administrator that should be and was guaranteed by the special commission to be independent of the Governor’s inquiry.
I have a certain sympathy for fall guys as I have been in their shoes myself, the art is not to let it happen more than once. I always refer to positions rather than names limit these people’s exposure to others using the posts negatively.
The Alliance supporting the greyhounds has a budget greater than it Grey2k but less than the Government. The internal critics of the greyhounds and the Government in the reform that brought in the share holder TAB was that they all did. The deal done in Victoria was done by independent consultants and was more in favour of racing.
What the greyhounds alliance is doing now is not repeating the mistakes of the past and getting the best advice that money can buy and that is what they are doing.
The advise of the Government Whip is helpful, be the Premier as morally blinkered as he may be, he sees financial matters along the lines of the top of town and claims for compensation will determine his resolve to some degree. I am not sure how compensation for people working on a volunteer bases on reasonable expectations under contracts can be assessed but I will try and assist the Country Clubs getting a contingent law firm to work it out for them.
The Government see the whole issue as a industrial downsize uncomplicated in some areas by not having to choose between various interests as in animal racing a whole of one part of the industry goes and not the other. This makes the previous internal attempts to remove the community clubs without the support of the Governments a different situation to what is now happening.
Grey2k only has to convince the majority of the Government that their views prevail and that the legislators need to vote on social licence. If the parliament needs to be convinced on social license then it is easy to see why The Administrator has been so keen to close down the community tracks which have the support of all country politicians.
The sustainability of greyhound racing is being confused with the theory that all participants should be able to make a living racing greyhounds. The ABS stats show that Direct players involved in all sports making a living out of the end event (ie the race) is 1.78% for all sports (this was the figure when I last looked). Greyhound racing is no different to any sport with the top 2% winning a reasonable amount, The top 2% in greyhound racing would not earn as much per head as say the top 2% of foot ball players or tennis players. Most people in any sporting endeavour and the arts for that matter are in it for the amenity and activity.
I will go into the politics if you want me to and I have not sent people totally to sleep.
With regards to the leader of GAG and the Administrator of GRNSW, I have some sympathy for them as they have allowed themselves to be fall guys and I hope they learn from their experiences.
With regard to BS the CEO of GBOTA and driver of the Alliance project, he is not the usual CEO who gets in their toughs it out and then gets out and let someone else clean up the mess. He has been in the position for twenty years which is not the modern way that CEO’s function but it is the cultural way a lot of the greyhound administrations work. If this is a cultural war which I suspect it is Brenton is the best qualified person in a culture sense that you could headhunt.
dogem53 Deborah555 The subtle shift by the party whip away from “wastage” to money might also be because the horse set realise that using wastage as a justification for banning the industry leaves them even more open for attack by the AA and I am sure they have pointed that out to their local members as well or probably some-one much higher in the Members stand. I thought it was common knowledge the greyhound turnover subsided the horses and has for a very long time. I didn’t know about the Rosehill affair though thanks.
Whatever the reason it smells like class warfare which every way you look at it.
Deborah555 dogem53 Sorry I did not get to the edit fast enough.
The point I was making with the previous matters leading to the racing industry selling the TAB to the shareholder company was that the critic participants alleged that the bad deal was done by the greyhound industry in house in conjunction with the Government GRA control board. I would dispute this but would agree that the whole of the transfer was done in house by the Government (they actually boasted about it in the parliament debates. Why Victoria got a better deal was the deal was done by independent consultants with the key interest in racing. Therefore what I am saying is that the alliance supporting greyhound racing is not making the mistakes of the past where particularly the Government Departments were not up to speed on being involved in matters beyond their experience, but the exercise is expensive.
I stick to the Australian Racing Greyhound because the system works better for me because you have brilliant moderators and the contributions end in debate which the site is designed to encouraged.
would the illustrious BROMHEAD,MP also that is possible in the reformation of greyhound racing?
is he the only MP who sees this? as an EXPERT(LOL) ON REFORMATION,one would/should watch closely his responses if/when asked CAN GREYHOUNDS BE FEFORMED?
amazing how snippets spoken can be used as weapons for seeking the real mind and its real thoughts.
no offence to BROMHEAD MP, but if you smell a skunk,do you turn your nose up, or do you seek where it is and move it away from being the offensive smell tickling your nose?
ask a simple question in parliament……….WHO THINKS GREYHOUND RACING ”CANNOT BE REFORMED AND WHY”……..for those who negate the question,ask them there reasons. I guarantee they will quote the BAIRD/RUSHTON/MCHUGH REPORT……..ask again, have you FULLY READ ALL 700 PAGES AND UNDERSTOOD IT?……………bet the answer is………………
John Tracey Deborah555 dogem53 Thanks John another informative and great read. Brention is doing us proud isn’t he along with the rest of the team at GBOTA.
As for sympathy for the fall guys you are of course a much more gracious person than myself – I think if you sell your soul to the devil -you can wear the consequences.
Deborah555 John Tracey dogem53 If you have been to hell and back you can be destroyed or learn from your experience. I think that they might be dancing with the devil and we all know where that ends
Deborah555 lone widow dogem53 Yes it’s obvious it’s about the money. I do think the industry is making a huge mistake by focusing on welfare as the main issue, it’s a diversion in my opinion, it’s what Baird wants us to focus on.
For me alone (with my greyhounds) sitting in my little house thinking about what has happened it’s about freedom.
I have lost a basic constitutional freedom.
Deborah555 dogem53 Don’t forget he has the support of the Animal Justice Party in the Upper House who support Beastiality, and that’s the only vote Baird needs to push his agenda through and if you notice he has been quite as a church mouse, as Baird said to him, sit quite and look after my balance of POWER ! Its a pity the NATS don’t the Guts to cross the floor and save their jobs, at the end of the day they are all only mongrel breed bastards.
lone widow Deborah555 dogem53 Yes it is wrong and I am grateful to have been allowed to spend so much of my life with these beautiful creatures -something Baird wants to deprive others of, as well as their income, reputation, the last bit of joy, passion and social connection they have. Seems the prick is too busy figuring out ways to add sneaky charges on insurance, registration and how to deprive people of the ability to pay their electricity bills etc etc etc. than anything about the good of the state.
Deborah555 lone widow dogem53 Deborah, I do not have a law degree, just a laymans mind playing tricks on me so please don’t reply to this if you think i am just being fanciful.
I just can’t get past this, it’s been bothering me for a while. In the late 1960’s early 70’s the coal mine owners in the Burragorang Valley in NSW tried to cut the wages and bonuses of the miners. The bonuses were simply danger money by another name which underground coal miners have always received.
To cut a long story short it went to court and the mine owners lost the case. The bit i cannot get past is the court ruling that the high wages and bonuses had been paid since underground mining began, the ruling was ‘PRACTICE BECOMES LAW’
This decision was more than likely handed down in the court of arbitration???. Does that mean the precedent does not apply to anything else like the greyhound industry that has existed harmoniously alongside society for 100 years.
lone widow Deborah555 dogem53 Sounds like a pretty valid argument to me Lone Widow but unfortunately we have a Premier who appears to be acting as though the law means nothing and he is God taking advice from people who appear to be, well, wack jobs.
lone widow dogem53 PS he even has the audacity to use a retired high court judge who made 79 recommendations about how to keep the industry going- in his campaign to get his own way- just using the first recommendation and letting this learned man cop the flak while Stevie boy Rushton is hiding out letting the Judge wear the criticism. Disgraceful behaviour. No I have not seen much respect for the law in this campaign.
BobWhitelaw Deborah555 dogem53 Yes selling your soul to some-one who allegedly thinks it is ok to know animals in the biblical sense is a bit of a worry to say the least. These “independents” pushing their own personal obsessions are damaging democracy, hiding behind a love of animals, to push their own fanatical views and unmet needs for power and control of others and a nice fat tax free pension to the end of your days.
Deborah555 lone widow dogem53 I don’t think the judge is the fool everyone thinks he is. He has seen the treachery behind what Baird is trying to do. He has spent 15 months formulating the report. You don’t do that and leave all the loopholes that he has.
The good judge could be an ally.
If a Government whip is giving out information it means that he is under the instruction of the Premier.
The most likely explanation is that the Premier is feeling the heat and wants to deflect the greyhounds off the main game (keeping in)
The talk on finance fair share etc is to make the horses oppose us for financial reasons.
The whip may be a nice bloke but he is picked because of his loyalty to the established order.
The whip is the most unlikely member to give you a lift up but the extraordinary mistakes being made by Government proves that they feel under the pump.
John Tracey A journalist from the Australian alleged the party whip was one of the people who had spoken out against the ban in one of their meetings, maybe Baird is putting him in his place by making him face the greyhound people he was too gutless to front the demonstrators himself. Baird appears to be happy to blame and use anyone including his own staffers for his total lack of judgement and to protect his ego.
Deborah555 John Tracey It is an interesting choice for the greyhound participant group addressing a Government whip against there industry. I take proposals to the parliament with parties who are on side and the whips usually distribute the instrument. The Government whip has the Myall Lake electorate which does not have greyhound racecourses in it.
His question in parliament asked by the whip have been Dorothy Dix’s which is the role of the whip as well.
The whips role is (cut and paste)
Whips are the party’s “enforcers”, who typically offer inducements and threaten party members to ensure that they participate according to the official party policy. A whip’s role is also to ensure that the elected representatives of their party are in attendance when important votes are taken.
It is mystery to me why greyhound people are seeing a Government whip but I would be interested to know but in a conflict between him having regards for greyhounds he would have to regard his duty as whip paramount.
I think that most if not nearly all the nationals would be extremely uncomfortable about what is going on with the greyhounds.