Breeding down but customer shortage still holding back greyhounds

ONE of the more stark comparisons to be made between 2003 and 2013 is that fewer litters are being whelped but more greyhounds are being named, according to Greyhounds Australasia data which has now been updated to the 2013 year (where is 2014, you might ask?).

The corollary to that is another curate’s egg situation – good in parts: making use of a bigger proportion of the dog population is a good thing from a welfare viewpoint, but at the same time it says field standards must be dropping as more bottom level dogs are put into the racing mix.

The fall in litter numbers is consistent with anecdotal statements from some trainer/breeders that pups are more difficult to sell at the moment. How much that has been influenced by live baiting publicity is unknown but it will be something to watch in the future. That said, it is hard to spot any decline in wagering over the last couple of months.

Answers to these “why” questions could be found only after conducting some serious research amongst both the general public and racing participants. Nationally, of course. State by state figures for breeding could be highly misleading.

Here are the key changes over the decade to 2013.

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burra man
burra man
5 years ago

There are a lot of people in vic not breeding because they cant sell pups because they are saying that everything is going to wheeler and they cant afford to keep full litters themselves without selling a few.Until vic start restricting him like nsw do then things will go down hill even further.

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

burra man I have read through your posts on your profile and I agree with a lot you are saying. However the basic problem is one of exports and imports which are not included in the raw statistics put out by GA. Greyhound Racing is a National Sport and currently Victoria pays 37% roughly of the prize money available Nationally and including NZ. The leading breeder/owner accounts for roughly 4% ( 2% for himself less exes and 2% for his trainers less their exes) of the prize money nationally and this includes a large chunk out of the Victorian purse… Read more »

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

John Tracey burra man I only know what i have been told by people in vic that used to breed but wont now .I have never bred a litter myself but i feel very sorry for the people who have been squeezed out of the game .

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

John Tracey When you say it is harder for nsw trainers than vic did you take into account that the chances of getting a run in nsw is much easier even though the prizemoney isnt as good as vic but nsw trainers have much better chance of getting a run .Down here and in sa most meetings have 20 to 30 wheeler dogs getting a run ahead of local trainers that have much better form than some of wheelers dogs that get a run.I would prefer to get a run for less money than have the dog sitting at home… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

burra man John Tracey I think the point that you are making is that is important for most people to have the activity of racing as compared to economics of it. It is easy to get a run in NSW but the cost of preparing a dog to race, attending a race course within working hours and the maintenance of a greyhound who needs a lot more starts in races to get the same prize money as the trainers get in Victoria coupled with this the trainers costs also involve losing the greyhound to Victoria or other States. The owners only… Read more »

Todman
Todman
5 years ago

The lopsided Breeders Bonus in Queensland does not help, it’s not a breeders bonus when the breeder gets 30% and the owner 70% where’s the logic? No logic in Queensland where almost everyday something is mentioned in relation to live baiting fuelled by incompetent RQ Board whose removal is vital

Pink Penny
Pink Penny
5 years ago

burra man god help the poor greyhounds going to China

Dezzey
Dezzey
5 years ago

Pink Penny burra man do you know if this has been resolved or is the loophole closed ? I understand it may be legal to do so but welcome some clarification. 

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/greyhound-traders-defy-ban-on-exports-to-macau-canidrome-20140419-36xii.html

Recluse 60
Recluse 60
5 years ago

burra man John Tracey  I think if Mr Wheeler sells all his dogs to China (as he has reported himself) then he will find it hard to export them all to China or Vietnam as Greyhounds Australasia will not issue dog passports for those countries. The only way round it is to retire them all and then they could be exported as pets and GA can do nothing about it unfortunately. So the other way he could do it is that who ever buys his dogs will have to leave them here. Knowing Mr Wheeler he will no doughtily take on… Read more »

Dezzey
Dezzey
5 years ago

Recluse 60 burra man John Tracey I’m paraphrasing but the NSW Inquiry last year had noted the concerns of both Industry and non-industry over exports but said it was a matter for the Commonwealth. I checked their site and there is a form for exporting Greys for racing/breeding. (note I am staying non-emotive as my past rants have not been useful and inaccurate).

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Dezzey Recluse 60 burra man John Tracey That is correct but the passport form is issued after the federal export licence is granted. This was the situation when I made my enquiry to the Federal Department. Situations can change, it would be better in the long run if China was an affiliate of The Australian States and the condition of racing and breeding greyhounds was universal but this is not the case. My last contact with the financial review reporter etc was an e-mail in June 1910 (copy retained) I also made notes of phone calls with the federal department and others. I… Read more »

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

People down here including myself attack the one person because he would have to be the only owner in aust that kept sending dogs to someone he knew had a positive to ICE as far back as january .He knows as well as everyone else down here that bate is training the dogs and hunt mitchell and davis are only names .Why would any honest breeder give dogs to davis when she has only had a licence since it was evident that hunt was going to get rubbed out.And what about his other lurk to buck the system because of… Read more »

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

Saying the authorities are frightened of wheeler is not really right the former 2 grv boards have looked after wheeler so well they have created a monster and the new board are doing every thing they can to make a level playing field for everyone .Thers is no doubt that some on previous grv boards would have swept the 3 positives to ICE under the carpet to protect him but now they are hitting him very hard so hard that he is running out of trainers down here .The council around where most of his dogs are trained at anakie… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Just on the subject of bias here is a statement which shows a good example of it.  Cut and Paste. The chairman of Greyhound Racing Victoria, Peter Caillard, resigned over the controversy last month. The resignations came after Racing Integrity Commissioner Sal Perna released a report which found there was no “direct” evidence of live baiting at any track other than Tooradin. However the report said it would be “naive” to accept that the practice was not and had not been going on elsewhere. On the balance of probabilities, Mr Perna said, GRV could not have been expected to know… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

burra man my point is that if a trainer has thirty or more dogs in a meeting then there is a problem with the system rather than the trainer.Your assertions will be tested to some degree by potential criminal charges and these matters need to be tested in court. However, some of the matter you are bringing up show clearly that there are problems at the perception level and perceptions are as important as realities when branding of greyhound racing is needed.The early greyhound racing branded itself by relating to the famous people who attended the racecourse rather than the… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Re my reply to Burra man it should read (temporary owner) rather than trainer temporary owner. The point is that in informal 50/50 arrangements the trainer is also the effective owner in bulk transactions and the rules should take this into consideration.
Just on the China conditions.
Hers is a cut and paste of a GRNSW approved article on the subject.

http://www.thedogs.com.au/NewsArticle.aspx?NewsId=4378

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Dezzey Pink Penny burra man The GA ban is on issuing their domestic passports not on the export to China. The export of animals overseas is in the province of the Federal Department under federal law. If you want to ban trade with Asia then you need to take it up with the Federal Government. The reason that the trade in greyhounds with China is so secretive may have something to do with dealers wanting to keep their business commercially confidential rather than the proposition ,which seems self serving to me, that the welfare of greyhounds is not protected because there are… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Todman The NSW response has developed further with the letters patent being withdrawn and replaced  by an inquiry to be held by the retired high court judge and council assisting together with assistance from the Crown Solicitor, the control board and other interests have been removed from the judicial process.
Interesting points are under the quality assurance requirements and the witnesses sect 22,23,24 under the special commission inquiry act 1983.
In NSW they are obviously sorting the procedures out before they start.
Here is the revised letters patent.
http://www.greyhoundracinginquiry.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/Letters_Patent_dated_6_May_2015.pdf

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

There are a lot of people in vic not breeding because they cant sell pups because they are saying that everything is going to wheeler and they cant afford to keep full litters themselves without selling a few.Until vic start restricting him like nsw do then things will go down hill even further.

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

burra man I have read through your posts on your profile and I agree with a lot you are saying. However the basic problem is one of exports and imports which are not included in the raw statistics put out by GA. Greyhound Racing is a National Sport and currently Victoria pays 37% roughly of the prize money available Nationally and including NZ. The leading breeder/owner accounts for roughly 4% ( 2% for himself less exes and 2% for his trainers less their exes) of the prize money nationally and this includes a large chunk out of the Victorian purse… Read more »

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

John Tracey burra man I only know what i have been told by people in vic that used to breed but wont now .I have never bred a litter myself but i feel very sorry for the people who have been squeezed out of the game .

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

John Tracey When you say it is harder for nsw trainers than vic did you take into account that the chances of getting a run in nsw is much easier even though the prizemoney isnt as good as vic but nsw trainers have much better chance of getting a run .Down here and in sa most meetings have 20 to 30 wheeler dogs getting a run ahead of local trainers that have much better form than some of wheelers dogs that get a run.I would prefer to get a run for less money than have the dog sitting at home… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

burra man John Tracey I think the point that you are making is that is important for most people to have the activity of racing as compared to economics of it. It is easy to get a run in NSW but the cost of preparing a dog to race, attending a race course within working hours and the maintenance of a greyhound who needs a lot more starts in races to get the same prize money as the trainers get in Victoria coupled with this the trainers costs also involve losing the greyhound to Victoria or other States. The owners only… Read more »

Todman
Todman
5 years ago

The lopsided Breeders Bonus in Queensland does not help, it’s not a breeders bonus when the breeder gets 30% and the owner 70% where’s the logic? No logic in Queensland where almost everyday something is mentioned in relation to live baiting fuelled by incompetent RQ Board whose removal is vital

Pink Penny
Pink Penny
5 years ago

burra man god help the poor greyhounds going to China

Dezzey
Dezzey
5 years ago

Pink Penny burra man do you know if this has been resolved or is the loophole closed ? I understand it may be legal to do so but welcome some clarification. 

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/greyhound-traders-defy-ban-on-exports-to-macau-canidrome-20140419-36xii.html

Recluse 60
Recluse 60
5 years ago

burra man John Tracey  I think if Mr Wheeler sells all his dogs to China (as he has reported himself) then he will find it hard to export them all to China or Vietnam as Greyhounds Australasia will not issue dog passports for those countries. The only way round it is to retire them all and then they could be exported as pets and GA can do nothing about it unfortunately. So the other way he could do it is that who ever buys his dogs will have to leave them here. Knowing Mr Wheeler he will no doughtily take on… Read more »

Dezzey
Dezzey
5 years ago

Recluse 60 burra man John Tracey I’m paraphrasing but the NSW Inquiry last year had noted the concerns of both Industry and non-industry over exports but said it was a matter for the Commonwealth. I checked their site and there is a form for exporting Greys for racing/breeding. (note I am staying non-emotive as my past rants have not been useful and inaccurate).

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Dezzey Recluse 60 burra man John Tracey That is correct but the passport form is issued after the federal export licence is granted. This was the situation when I made my enquiry to the Federal Department. Situations can change, it would be better in the long run if China was an affiliate of The Australian States and the condition of racing and breeding greyhounds was universal but this is not the case. My last contact with the financial review reporter etc was an e-mail in June 1910 (copy retained) I also made notes of phone calls with the federal department and others. I… Read more »

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

People down here including myself attack the one person because he would have to be the only owner in aust that kept sending dogs to someone he knew had a positive to ICE as far back as january .He knows as well as everyone else down here that bate is training the dogs and hunt mitchell and davis are only names .Why would any honest breeder give dogs to davis when she has only had a licence since it was evident that hunt was going to get rubbed out.And what about his other lurk to buck the system because of… Read more »

burra man
burra man
5 years ago

Saying the authorities are frightened of wheeler is not really right the former 2 grv boards have looked after wheeler so well they have created a monster and the new board are doing every thing they can to make a level playing field for everyone .Thers is no doubt that some on previous grv boards would have swept the 3 positives to ICE under the carpet to protect him but now they are hitting him very hard so hard that he is running out of trainers down here .The council around where most of his dogs are trained at anakie… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Just on the subject of bias here is a statement which shows a good example of it.  Cut and Paste. The chairman of Greyhound Racing Victoria, Peter Caillard, resigned over the controversy last month. The resignations came after Racing Integrity Commissioner Sal Perna released a report which found there was no “direct” evidence of live baiting at any track other than Tooradin. However the report said it would be “naive” to accept that the practice was not and had not been going on elsewhere. On the balance of probabilities, Mr Perna said, GRV could not have been expected to know… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

burra man my point is that if a trainer has thirty or more dogs in a meeting then there is a problem with the system rather than the trainer.Your assertions will be tested to some degree by potential criminal charges and these matters need to be tested in court. However, some of the matter you are bringing up show clearly that there are problems at the perception level and perceptions are as important as realities when branding of greyhound racing is needed.The early greyhound racing branded itself by relating to the famous people who attended the racecourse rather than the… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Re my reply to Burra man it should read (temporary owner) rather than trainer temporary owner. The point is that in informal 50/50 arrangements the trainer is also the effective owner in bulk transactions and the rules should take this into consideration.

Just on the China conditions.

Hers is a cut and paste of a GRNSW approved article on the subject.

http://www.thedogs.com.au/NewsArticle.aspx?NewsId=4378

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Dezzey Pink Penny burra man The GA ban is on issuing their domestic passports not on the export to China. The export of animals overseas is in the province of the Federal Department under federal law. If you want to ban trade with Asia then you need to take it up with the Federal Government. The reason that the trade in greyhounds with China is so secretive may have something to do with dealers wanting to keep their business commercially confidential rather than the proposition ,which seems self serving to me, that the welfare of greyhounds is not protected because there are… Read more »

John Tracey
John Tracey
5 years ago

Todman The NSW response has developed further with the letters patent being withdrawn and replaced  by an inquiry to be held by the retired high court judge and council assisting together with assistance from the Crown Solicitor, the control board and other interests have been removed from the judicial process.

Interesting points are under the quality assurance requirements and the witnesses sect 22,23,24 under the special commission inquiry act 1983.

In NSW they are obviously sorting the procedures out before they start.

Here is the revised letters patent.

http://www.greyhoundracinginquiry.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/Letters_Patent_dated_6_May_2015.pdf