What has the greyhound industry learned from the ban?

Past Discussion

1. lone widow Deborah555 spyman John Tracey Hugh_ jeff holland  The ABC 1000 the tele says 500 that’s still 2000 less than our protest and we didn’t get a single picture in the ABC. I checked the crowd just the usual middle age housewives with nothing to do now the kids have left home, young idealist left wing lesbians and the lone male ( friendless and now a world leading authority because he has adopted a greyhound the usual rent a crowd.

   I did send my apologies to Mehreen about being unable to attend this prestigious event and asked what she is doing about horse wastage she didn’t reply lol.

   If they are throwing money they must be worried good. Demonstrates their desire to save the Nationals is greater than their belief about welfare which of course is no surprise.

2. jeff holland John Tracey Hugh_ lone widow 

   6 dog fields,and pre determined box positions,and NO DAMN CORNER STARTS…..simplistic.

3. spyman jeff holland John Tracey Hugh_ lone widow  plus lone widows track design and we are laughing.

4. Deborah555 spyman jeff holland John Tracey Hugh_ lone widow 

   trying to save moolah Deborah. start with the least financial,and keep breaking down until its done right..have no doubt proper cambers and one turns are the way to go,but are we in that good a financial position? all ideas are better than sitting on our bums.

5. spyman Deborah555 jeff holland John Tracey Hugh_ lone widow great ideas spyman I totally agree but hell why not be greedy especially now welfare is in the picture you just never know your luck.   A good bloke on a grader could sort some  of tracks in a few hours but you are absolutely right with the views that all a great place to start and costs are less I understand that.

6. What have we learnt from the ban- well 34 greyhound people just beat two animal activists to the comments page of the telegraphs latest story ( bless all those at the Telegraph paper) so I think we have learnt about the power of social media and making a noise.

7. spyman jeff holland John Tracey Hugh_ lone widow Would you consider handicapped races on corners, it works in athletics. Box designs have not changed much in 70 years only refinements along the same theme. Also would the use of drones be made available this would allow a better predetermined route taking into account the geography of the track ie in some places the hare could be in a wider position rather than reshaping a track.

   I like the way the outside hare works on some UK tracks it seems to work on hexagonal type of outside rails. A drone could be programmed to run to a predetermined route with the driving mechanism set to adjust speeds if necessary. 

   Since greyhound racing has commenced computers that put the first man on the moon took up a large building now you can get the same power in a disposal shop that you can hold in your hand. Some greyhound CEO’s are getting big bucks to push for more of the same.Money would be better spent on technology.

8. Hugh_ lone widow spyman Deborah555 Great contribution. The people on the ground are always ahead of the administrators when it comes to the welfare of anything. The greyhound people are more interested in animal welfare that the general public as they have voted to be a part of it. So the only real consideration is focus. I did a survey years ago on the posts on Global Greyhounds. Of the top twenty posts over many years eighteen of them could be classified as concerning animal welfare. There is a definite connection between animal welfare  and economics but unless their is a focus on animal welfare then the economics don’t become apparent. There is little difference between scientific research on welfare and scientific research on marketing and promotion. For example if you dig deeper into research you will find that there is a low percent of canines adopted by older people. A lot of older people are living by themselves and like a companion animal but they are either living in places where animals are not accepted but mainly they are concerned that the animal will outlive them and they worry about what will happen to the animal after they are gone.

   The market opportunities are producing a instrument where the animal is cared for in the event of the person passing on.Most people will outlive the dog so the premium can be assessed.

   Also the rules on residential accomodation need to accomodate companion animals. Otherwise there is no sense in people requiring that animal sports need a social licence if it is not required in the housing industry etc.

   In Balmain most of the hotels and eating places accommodate dogs. There is or was a place that served a canine menu including a pupa-chino. When the councils merged with the Balmain area most of the places serving canines were fined – for each offence but it did not last long and it is now back to business as usual.

   The only place in the area that you cant have a meal with a greyhound is at Wentworth Park where the public are protected by dogs in kennels that cant give the public rabies but that are unsafe areas where dogs with conflicts of interest are put together and a fortune is spent on trying to make the areas secure.

   I was talking to a Melbourne of architects who specialise in low cost design projects, about getting some backlog animal welfare infrastructure on tracks. They think that they could provide a design to suit some volunteer work and produce five three bedroom houses along side each other and fronting the street from the perimeter of the greyhound track and provide a better suited kennel inside the five garages of the houses on the track for les than we are paying for a set of kennels on TAB tracks.

   Also high rises like Happy Valley Race Course could be used in NSW. The high rise contains infrastructure built into the first two floors of the building facing the track.

   If you go to America you are likely to sit next to someone with a dog on their lap. Most european cities allow animals on public transport and in Rome the most expensive hotel has special accommodation for canines (I saw greyhound there) and a special canine in house menu.

   I realise that officials are proud of the fact that there have been no rabies attacks in NSW for many years but it is a bit like the elephant and confetti joke.

   Q. Why are you sprinkling confetti on the ground.

   A, To keep the Elephants away.

   Q. There are no elephants loose in NSW.

   A. See sprinkling the confetti works!.

9. John Tracey Hugh_ lone widow spyman Deborah555 John, i remember as a child in the 1950’s travelling from the suburbs of Sydney (Auburn) to the city by train on a saturday and you would get any number of trainers and greyhounds on the train on their way to Wentworth Park for a nights racing. (Racing dogs must be a constitutional right by now)?

   On another point you make the only reason dogs other than competing greyhounds are not allowed at the venue on race nights that i know of is they could disrupt the race if they got away from their owner during the race.  A no race is not a good look.

   I don’t think we have rabies here.

10. John Tracey Hugh_ spyman Deborah555 PS. Sorry John it’s late i’m slowing down in my old age.

11. Deborah555 lone widow spyman John Tracey Hugh_ jeff holland It is a mistake to not respect the size of the protest. Significantly it is a protest in the City and not in the Country. I notice that the animal action group are not standing at Orange. The protest will probably cause a further division between Country and City interests. The City interests in greyhound racing need to be accommodated as well, it is a complex situation which needs management. It is a tough one in my estimation.

12. After reading this opinion piece, I do not believe any actual “learning” happened. 

13. kctipton  wow, a psychic. and you have witnessed this personally? or do you read tea leaves as well.

    u r the first person I ever have seen can predict what is happening,probably on any subject,simply by reading other peoples comments. god damn,i am impressed.

14. Deborah555  LOL……….victory. god bless the Daily Telegrapgh.and Hadley/jones/murray/foley/Hodgkinson/murray(he gets 2 votes cos he went to the people)and all the others who got involved,and of course. THE PEOPLE.

15. kctipton Fair comment, the opinion piece is about what the Government have learned about the Ban rather than what Greyhound Racing has but the piece still encourages debate and the moderator of the debate allows a free flow of ideas one way or another. The grass roots of greyhound racing have a sharp focus on welfare matters and this is what excites them here and on other greyhound sites. The lesson to be learned in my opinion is to accept there is a “social licence” in every endeavour and eventually the public interest (social licence) drives the commercial interest as well. Opinion pieces on raw administration receive little or no comment but the interest on this opinion piece is up to one hundred contributions.

    Your other contributions to this site in other places are interesting l and are lessons for administrators to learn as well.

    cut and paste of your remarks from your history.

    Reform of the industry seems to require an IQ test and literacy test.  “Can you read these rules?  Do you understand these rules?  What do these rules say?” 

    
    

    Reform of the industry seems to require an IQ test and literacy test

    A. Reforms need to be understood in plain english with a comprehension level of 10- 12 being the comprehensive level required to read articles in the popular press. The reforms need to be transparent and understood by the Departments and Agencies  themselves that is not necessarily the case.

    Can you read these rules.

    A.The rules need to be readily available to all participants and the rules include the processes that drive them , this includes access to policy manuals as well as bland policy statements.

    Do you understand the rules, do you know What the rules say.

    A. There is a need for an annotation as there is associated with most legislation and Acts. An annotation is an explanation of what the rules mean but is not a part of the actual legislation. It appears in notes on a lot of legislation . ie statements like to avoid any element of doubt …………………………………..

    Also there are publications such as the previous Millers guide to the trade practice act that explains in simple terms how the trae practice act works (for example. The advantages of the annotation ( a narrative if what an act or regulation means if you like) is the people writing the rules need to understand why they are doing it as well.

    I am not sure what you are trying to say with your other contribution referring the a greyhound of the Year award in Western Australia but if you let me know I am happy to comment further on it.

16. Deborah555 lone widow jeff holland John Tracey Hugh_ Leave box 5 vacant, next problem?.

17. Hugh_ lone widow spyman Deborah555 Hugh  i believe like you and majority of  Greyhound  people love animals  of all kinds. I read with interest that your against Animal Exploitation  for money, i recently spoke to a former compliance officer with the RSPCA  and i was shocked at what he told us.He stated that only 10% of their income of around 100 million  dollars actuality goes to caring of the Animals while in their care! wouldn’t you agree that’s a form of animal exploitation by the leading welfare group  here in in Australia ?

18. lone widow Deborah555 spyman John Tracey Hugh_ jeff holland Needs a counter suggest the greyhound industry conference at Wentworth Park in late  Nov early DEc has a heavy animal welfare item focus. A picture is worth a thousand words.

19. John Tracey Deborah555 lone widow spyman Hugh_ jeff holland  John I think the bizarre nature of some of the protestors costumes etc has done them more harm than good. I agree these fanatics will not stop but I think they may have lost some credibility during all this.

20. Deborah555 John Tracey spyman Hugh_ There was some research that showed that women avoided greyhound meetings at night for security considerations but also they did not like seeing dogs crashing on the first turns. The way to improve greyhound welfare is probably to encourage more woman to it so for this reason alone something should be done. Administrators dont like dealing with woman.

    The biggest protest from participants when I was on the board was from the woman who controlled various traks in the rural area. They were enraged when the evacuation policy (following 9/11) only catered for participants not the greyhounds. I got more letter of protest from this that anything else. When I took it to the board they said, these people just complain about anything, move on. There is still no guidelines for the evacuation of dogs to my knowledge.

21. lone widow John Tracey Hugh_ spyman Deborah555 We are talking t cross purposes but you re mentioning a dimension that could be considered.

    I am talking about the  greyhounds entered on the night or day for an event and being allowed to celebrate or being held joined by the connection.

    Just on the subject of events in the Rural areas where both dogs are part of the promotion both kennelled and un-kennelled ie the Brood bitch challenge at Young 12 offical races kennelled and 21 heats of fields of 4 aged greyhounds (time trials) kept in dedicated areas un kennelled (with some trial kennels available) No instances over 6 years of greyhounds escape.

    Also country events including racing and exotic dogs, no problems with escapes.

    Currently there is motions before the Country Clubs conference for exotic dogs to be included at meetings  and in carnivals. Some tracks are measuring up containing areas for exotic dogs on racetracks. Some tracks have trial kennels under air conditioning but most exotic events need to be held in the colder months similar to the old coursing programs. A contained area for exercise allows exotic dogs to stay in kennels and be safely exercised whjle the visitor (tourist) can stay at the primitive camp site on track or leave the dog on track and book into accomodation off track. Preference should be given to the adoptees of greyhounds.

22. John Tracey Deborah555 spyman Hugh_  Yes I am always happy to see some  women when I get to the track not that I have ever been treated with anything less than respect by any male trainers it is just that you feel more comfortable when  a couple of your women friends are there. It  is always good to have a balance most men are more practical and realistic about welfare and a lot of women are protected from the harsher side of life by the men in their lives who do the “tough stuff”. I doubt whether too many men who work at the abattoirs when asked by their wife how was your day really go into too many details. But a soft touch is always a good idea as well when it comes to welfare.

23. Hugh_ lone widow spyman Deborah555 Hugh, what you have missed on the hypocrisy front is the wide disparity of views of what cruelty actually is. For example take the photos of yesterdays march in Sydney, none of the dogs were enjoying the day, and you may not have noted but when greyhound people held their march, they didnt bring their dogs, we didnt use them as props for the media, we werent that cruel.

    And then there is the treatment of dogs by many who have them as pets. For mine confining a greyhound to  a flat, never allowing it to gallop is CRUEL, this is an animal that  loves to run, its a drug to them.

    The welfare lobby has to start accepting that on many things they have been WRONG, their treatment of greyhounds is not good, they want the animal to be something that suits their life, not as greyhound people do, where our lives revolve around what suits the greyhound.

    And then there is the feeding. Last GAP picnic i went to, a common complaint was FARTS. When i asked what they fed the dogs, it was horrific, they all fed commercial products, whereas greyhound people feed FRESH meat, make a lot of stews with fresh vegies and use rice and pasta as fill. Not only is this better for the dogs, but pick-up next day is  a lot smaller, there wasnt the turd mountain that many of the pet people complained about. Greyhounds need a high energy diet, they carry little fat, so feeding commercial means you have to feed a lot of food.

    Next complaint was cancer, the accepted wisdom is that its caused by close breeding or drug abuse. The most likely cause, the commercial diet and lack of exercise wasnt considered, even though people eating crap and doing SFA is accepted as a likely cause of disease.

    Flea and worm control. The animal welfare lobby complains of cancer, complains of poor conditions if any greyhound has any sign of fleas or worms, but draws no links between cancer and the known carcinogens used is many flea treatments, nor takes amy notice of greyhound vets who say to use many worming products sparingly, that some fleas and worms are better than overuse of the treatments.

    All this comes back to my first post, its animal HUSBANDRY, not welfare that needs to lead the debate, and i’ll be direct, the husbandry standards of the welfare lobby is much lower than that of the greyhound industry.

24. I think that I have learned through Mad Panda that we need to work our own rescue schemes on our own tracks as frankly the external services in the main are not good enough for us. see cut and past from another site.

    John Tracey3 minutes ago

    Mad Panda Hi you are using an emotional response to make your case. I have read your activity posts and agree with this item

    cut and paste.

    “The industry better start taking care of their own (dogs) and not lean on the community groups to do their dirty work.”

    I agree totally I would not send any of my greyhounds to a community group as most of them are simply not good enough to handle them. There are a lot of earnest people trying to help but need help themselves. In the regulated human welfare services we were trained, to watch out for people going of the rails. there is no help for similar people in the unregulated animal rescue industry.

25. Deborah555 John Tracey lone widow spyman Hugh_ jeff holland I think that if anyone mentioned greyhounds in the ear shot of the Premier he would take out a restraining order against them. The animal welfare protest is payback to the Premier and it shows the lack of human decency can overtake people who have allied previously with the Premier when it suited them and have deserted him when he is in a difficult position. Call me old fashioned but loyalty gets a lot of points with me and the anti-greyhound lobby has no loyalty to the Premier.

    However, any popular protest carries dangers so the situation needs attention. There is a danger for Metropolitan and close regional clubs that the protests will see the political conditions on them made more difficult and the country to be accommodated. The National Party protest strength was in the community track areas. My main interest is in the community tracks areas but I also see the viability of greyhound racing in the City areas. There is a need to counter the anti greyhound protest March at the Wentworth Park conference. I will try to focus on my report to conference but I must say the posts on this site are compelling. Great effort all around it takes a long time to come to the right conclusion so we should keep at it.

26. kctipton  wow,i at last have met someone who can predict by reading a forum piece! that is now considered staggering.or have you researched and delved and spoken with many,outside of that piece and this forum,to form such a pro response by yourself? I would be happy to meet and shake your hand,as u would be the first since the back flip,to have taken one step forward.the rest of us are stagnating behind,but we will follow u. me thinks not. a lot of work to be done yet before anyone,and I mean anyone,can confidently predict any changes or progress has been made. but happy to read tea leaves if need be…lol

27. spyman kctipton kc your latest post on another site contains hearsay and unproved allegations , only to willing to have a serious conversation with you but it has to be better than psychobabble.

    Do you agree that Hilmer reforms (such as the greyhound ones) need to include the principals of competitive neutrality. Control boards should need to prove they are competitive when taking over commercial tasks. This action would do away with the conflicts of interest and deliver productivity gains that could be used for animal welfare. I noticed that the greyhounds at the protest were in much better condition than previously although not quite up to greyhound participants standards required.

28. John Tracey Deborah555 lone widow spyman Hugh_ jeff holland I fail to see how supporting a decision you agree with and then protesting against that decision when it’s reversed shows a lack of decency.  Blind loyalty is not a virtue.

    Why should the anti-greyhound lobby have loyalty to Baird anyway?  The coalition is the worst of the major parties when it comes to advancing animal welfare, most people who want to improve the conditions for animals in Australia do not vote liberal or national, and Baird’s decision to ban greyhound racing came as a surprise to everyone.  There was never loyalty to Baird, he simply made a decision that welfare advocates agreed with.  And he had already disappointed welfare advocates by failing to implement committee recommendations for the regulation of puppy mills.

    If you had no loyalty to a politician to begin with, but you support a decision they make because it aligns with your values, and then you make your displeasure known when they reverse that decision, then you have not shown a lack of loyalty, you’re simply being consistent.  What about all the liberal voters that turned on Baird when he announced the ban?  Are they not being disloyal?  No.  People have their views, and they make them known whether it’s agreement or disagreement with the decisions of politicians.  You could make a much more credible argument for disloyalty on behalf of coalition voters than welfare advocates.

29. Also I have learned that a lot of the two turn tracks were designed to race with an outside hare so when we are are doing in reshaping and cambering tracks is making them suitable for the hare technology. With the advance in technology it would be easy to program the lure on or off an arm to move to the side as well as forward (retraction etc). The other codes have made serious advancements in safety with rails so why cant we. If the Gardens (Newcastle) had have used an outside hare they would not have had to pul down half the infrastructure. We are essentially using the same hare technology we did 70 years ago. Make the lure suit the track not the other way around. 

30. jeff holland Hugh_ The idea that my arguments in favour of extending empathy to animals is akin to religion is ridiculous.  Just because you describe something as a “belief” does not imply a standard level of evidence to support that belief.  Religions assert the existence of invisible omniscient beings for which there is no evidence, and then make moral arguments based on the instructions of these invisible beings.  This is irrational and not similar to saying, for example, that you believe in evolution, which is supported by a huge body of empirical evidence.

    I argue that animals feel pain and suffer in the same manner that we do.  This is a scientific claim, based on biological evidence, not a religious claim.  I then argue that given this fact, it is morally inconsistent to disregard their welfare when we protect human welfare so strongly.  This is an ethical argument based on logic, not religion.  Obviously there’s more to say on the matter, but that’s essentially it.  My view would be analogous to a religion if I was arguing that we should protect animals from harm because my invisible friend said we should.

    You say “it is what you BELIEVE, and much of that is wrong.” but you have not pointed out one thing that I “believe” which is wrong, you are simply stating it is so.

    I did not claim that everyone profits from greyhound racing, if you think I said that then produce the quote, otherwise, stop trying to attribute false views and statements to me.  I am fully aware that like many sports, there are participants that are involved for the passion, and not for the money, and accept a financial loss as a result.  This is essentially no different to having a hobby, like scuba diving, where you spend significant money in order to simply take part in the activity.  And actually many people run businesses at a loss as well, because they enjoy doing so and have other sources of revenue.  My objection is having a system which allows profit, or financial reward of any sort, for the use of animals, because this produces incentives that strongly tempt people to sacrifice the welfare of animals to gain financial reward.  I highly doubt anywhere near as many people would engage in live baiting if they did not stand to gain financially from the practice, and I doubt there would be much wastage of dogs if greyhound racing was a hobby, because it would consist overwhelmingly of those who love their dogs and would not consider killing them.

    As for human rights, you might notice that I don’t really talk about rights.  I don’t find them to be a very useful concept, and I generally consider them to be arbitrary.  I prefer to establish basic moral principles and then expand from there.  With regards to humans vs animals, the point I was making is that in western society we have agreed that just about any kind of intentional harm of humans unless in self defence is morally wrong and against the law.  I argue that it is morally inconsistent not to apply this same view to animals.  Sentient beings should not be unnecessarily harmed, that’s my view, pretty simple really.  That view is not based on quasi-religious beliefs, it’s based on science, logic, and the underlying basis of the moral code that we already apply to humans.  It is also not based on a list of rights.

    So much as you might want to paint my views as simply being yet another subjective and arbitrary morality, they are not, or at least you have completely failed to construct an argument that demonstrates them to be so.  If you can, then I will happily abandon them, I am always happy to be wrong and always seeking out valid arguments that undo my beliefs and assumptions.

31. BobWhitelaw Hugh_ lone widow spyman Deborah555 Bob which state was this in or do you mean nationally?  I’m a little reluctant to form any judgement based on one claim read in the comments page on this website.  I previously looked at the RSPCA’s financial statement in QLD briefly and that is not the impression that I got.  If the RSPCA is not doing a good job of directing the most money they can towards activities that benefit animals then I would of course be critical of that.  If that were the case then I would say they are exploiting people rather than animals since my understanding is 98% (or thereabouts) of their income is from donations.

    But there should be no mystery about the financials of the RSPCA, they publish a yearly financial statements that you can find online.  You shouldn’t have to rely on hearsay to find out what percentage of their income is spent on animals, you can look it up for yourself.

32. Hugh_ John Tracey Deborah555 lone widow spyman jeff holland Loyalty in family and politics is a virtue and sometimes it can be blind but the situation I am talking about is not blind. The Greens have run with a political campaign on animal welfare and in a previous life they backed greyhound racing as a grass root activity. The blooding of greyhounds has been known to the political parties from the creation of the Greens (Glebe1984 NSW) The Greens were more supportive of the developments at Wentworth Park than the Labor Party branches in the area on their grass roots preferences (see their early manifesto.) This was despite many welfare inquiries which included the blooding of greyhounds (thought to be at a sustainable level Senate Inquiry and other inquiries that they were invited to and did not attend.Obviously there were people in the Greens concerned with animal welfare as there are in any political party but it is fair comment to say from the higher level their entry into Animal Welfare had a large element of popularism in it and they stand guilty in my opinion of ambush of the Government. The difficulty the Government is in at the moment relates in my opinion largely to the Greens being an immature political party (They have only been formed since 1984) and their famous reputation for not taking any responsibility for any of their actions. They can and do turn on sixpence as the saying goes. The Greens may develop into a great party in the future but they should have shown some loyalty to the Premier when as the major party in the welfare alliance deemed that he got it wrong.

    I realise that the Greens can take a what they see as a moral high ground on this or anything but politics is the art of the possible the Greens in my view unable to accept any responsibility for anything and loyalty can translate into responsibility.

    Here is an example of Greens lack of responsibility (delegated to its members)

    The Greens objected to sniffer dogs in hotels because it forced members to swallow the drugs they had in their possession rather than get charged and this caused an over use of drugs by member (the public). Does this mean that the Greens would prefer sniffer dogs to be put down rather than causing inconvenience to people who cant handle the responsibility of the position they have put themself in. 

    I have a lot of time for the Federal Greens and their position of wanting to reform the NSW Branch, The attraction of the NSW Greens to the Wacko’s is fairly obvious and I suppose you could argue that the Greens should be loyal to the Wacko’s but politics is the art of the possible so the Greens in my opinion should start taking animal welfare seriously and assist the new process.

    In the end if you are loyal to nothing then no one will be loyal to you. The only real loyalty is loyalty to yourself and Hugh you certainly understand this in yourself, you should respect it in others.

33. John Tracey Hugh_ Deborah555 lone widow spyman jeff holland Your original comment was about the “anti-greyhound lobby”, which I assumed to mean those most dedicated to ending greyhound racing, which is largely members of the public.  I wouldn’t consider that to be synonymous with the Greens.

    I have mixed feelings about the Greens, they have some several policy positions that I prefer to the major parties but many that I do not.

34. Hugh_ BobWhitelaw lone widow spyman Deborah555 Sage Advice, I use the RSPCA stats as a microcosm as research background for marketing and promotion for a welfare scheme we having been trying to get up at Gunnedah for over two decades. I think that the RSPCA does a great job with the monies they receive but from the greyhound point of view if they are raising money using the visibility of Greyhound Racing to raise money from donators that believe they are contributing to the welfare of greyhounds and the monies are generally being spent on welfare elsewhere then there is an imbalance. I would have no objection to the RSPCA having a discrete unit involved in Greyhound Racing, receiving funding for the purpose and target donations. This unit could be attached to the Clubs Structure and club and RSPCA  governance would work out the way to go. I have no objection to NFP or charities that are ethical and single purpose towards Greyhounds as long as they report in public. My objection to the USA scheme is that they have a clause in their constitutions for prohibition which is alien to greyhound racing and to the Australian culture. If Grey2 or whatever it is called took the prohibition clause out of its constitution and worked only on improving the welfare of the greyhound I could support it. The problems that they greyhounds had in the past with supporting welfare of the greyhounds was that their contributions included a lot of general research in animals as well so the focus on the greyhound research was diluted. There is a strong argument for industries providing funds for general research but when you are a relatively small concern there is a need to target your research and buy (if you like) universal related research.

    MARKETING AND PROMOTION.

    The statistics on canine population numbers and euthanasia rates etc are an estimate formed through the two most accredited organisations surveying their members and averaging the results. They also use whatever methods available such as year books etc. The research is far too broad for marketing and Promotion in the discrete sense.

    Marketing and Promotion includes the RSPCA Stats that show a small number of the canine population at large but they do break up the various classifications of say adoption patters and the reasons for impounding canines and the need to dispose much more detailed than the universal bi panel.

    Adoptions for example follow adoption culture in the general, that is pups and kittens make up the bulk of the adoptions well beyond their percentage numbers in comparison to the older dogs. This means at some level people are adopting rather than buying so there seems some capacity for Greyhound pups to be adopted early in the piece with owner contracts allowing the dogs to be educated and raced with the trainers receiving percentages reasonably high) and some contract for the greyhound to be used for stud purposes if suitable). The fees to the adoptee would be placed into a trust fund for the care of the dog into old age. Also special promotions would be provided to the adoptee (owner). show dog and social events. The adoptee would have a “pet” for life with interesting dimensions. The greyhound operators would have a source of income.

35. John Tracey  John. tracks that we vision today,were designed for close up patronage and viewing.hence the grandstands and restaurants etc;. that was fine before things like sky and that progressed into the fast lanes of entertainment. ask ourselves this question. who really goes to watch the dogs anymore? apart from main events,attendance ,apart from trainers and owners and a few staff, is way down and the infrastructure is not utilised completely. food is of poor quality on basic meetings,again unless its a major night/day cup or whatever,so why not seriously consider,that tracks need to be designed to cater for the DOgs,not so much the patrons today.

    one can see that a straight track like Healsville in Vic, is booming, larger manufactured tracks,(2 in one) have really been a shambles,example is Geelong. a white elephant in most eyes. poor quality track considering its cost,and Trarlgon not much better.

    so one seriously needs to restructure everything. a feasibility study on patrons preference of straight or circle and even one turn,should be investigated. straight racing is,it appears,in a boom,but just not enough serious consideration given to that type of racing. safer for starters,and is that not one of the key sticking points?

    I see straight tracks,if given the chance, as an entertainment perspective and a safety and welfare issue, a better proposition than pulling apart so many run down circles that will require millions(wont get any funds) and do up to satisfy WHO?

    PS…. That does not mean all circles need to go. we really need to cut down on so many,but reinvent the straight at some. jmo.

36. Hugh_ John Tracey Deborah555 lone widow spyman jeff holland Sorry I see the lobby in organisational terms.My post was not clear sorry. I agree with you as to the public that supported the rally they are expressing their views and power to them.

    We have had a suicide of a youth in the family not to do with greyhounds but similar in effect to people driven by emotional overload on a young impressional mind. I don’t want to go further but none of us should think tht our cause leads to the above result.

    Just back to the loyalty issue.

    To be loyal to yourself you have to know who you are

    This can only be achieved when you have a moment of truth. (This is a situation without wriggle room where you have to go one way or another)

    Once you have been through this it defines and liberates you as you now know what you are being self loyal to yourself about.

    Cannery Row has a description of a man who was modest and was wrongly credited with rescuing people out of a burning plane. It was a case of mistaken identity and he intended to explain but people kept making him out as a hero and he appeared on talk back shows etc and he became a town hero.

    One night a house caught on fire and he was present and the house was in full blaze but a little lady in the crowd said my cat is in the burning house and the hero said don’t worry I will go into the house and rescue it. The man perished performing a ridiculous gesture but given a moment of truth he was willing to die for a reputation he did not deserve.

    The Premier of NSW had a charmed life, he was a chick magnet, silver spoon and was regarded by the press gallery and others as above his peers.

    He had a moment of truth with the greyhounds and when out of wriggle room was not willing to resign to facilitate a reputation no human deserves. This in my view is a success story in my view unlike the first moment of truth.

37. spyman John Tracey My point is that we are looking at the racetrack as producer of racing images and not as an entertainment. The old days used to include a range of other promotions.

    Here is a cut and paste of the Bulli Show grounds which is like show grounds owned by the Greyhound Freehold . The Bulli show ground is owned and controlled by the Council (in committee)

    cut and past.

    WollongongCouncil owns the showground and Bulli Greyhounds pays rent to the council. Thereis a sub-lease agreement to run things on the site with a Sub Committee of 6members but they are non-greyhoundrelated.They meet once-a-month todiscuss matters relating to the showground.

    The GBOTAgets income and maintains the greyhound infrastructure – therefore the moneybalance of input to output remains even

    Some of theevents that are held at the Showground:

    •Farmers/ForagersMarket has 3,000 to 7,000 people visiting every Sunday

    •Illawarrafolk festival – 500 artists

    •Campers(tents and caravans) accommodates 2,000 people maximum

    •BulliShow once-a-year

    •Motorcycleclub

    •Woodworkclub

38. John Tracey spyman  as an add on John,i recall the days at Sandown,where Afghan/Saluki/Jack Russel/whippet races were help by the appropriate clubs. I even remember athletics races over 100mtrs and 400mtr events being held. these are possible add ons that could be utilised on a race day/night. I know one chap at Temora, who did this type of thing just recently where local footy clubs,netball clubs,and so on,would come and have a great night doing their competitive thing against each other.there are so many possibilities during a dog meeting,and yes,by all means utilise tracks for other peoples usages like you quoted. the mind boggles John. just need some foresight hey? you up for that John?

39. spyman John Tracey Great Ideas, Exotics will attract crowds and also people who want to adopt greyhounds. On a linked Greyhound track program you can also get the effect of novelty that guarantee increase in crowds at different locations. The original monkey’s on greyhound promotions were run by a company and attracted great crowds initially

    at White City Vic Mascot and Newcastle NSW. The Camel races attracted 6,000 to the Harold Park Trots but only as a first time novelty. The Camel Races at Forbes get big crowds on Good Friday at Easter. Kite The annual ferret races in transparent tubing attracted 600 once a year. I am up to it, I put on two of the biggest promotions in the City zonks ago but the point is that everyone is up to it. It only takes a bit of focus the greyhounds are very inventive that is how all the racecourses were build on a shoestring originally.

40. John Tracey jeff holland Hugh_ lone widow Sorry just re reading the post and the stuff in brackets does not read right so I need to leave it out (my computer. The one problem with small fields is  change words) One problem with small fields is equivalent to trialling dogs in small fields that is they are likely to go about .3 of a second faster. The faster an animal travels the more potential it has for injury, particularly hair (greenstick) injury ) A ten year study of racehorses came to the same conclusion. Hare stick injuries can be missed in X-rays so to be safe the greyhound should not have pressure galloping work or racing for a fortnight.

41. John Tracey spyman  takes just the one step to get things in motion John. where to?

42. lone widow John Tracey Hugh_ spyman Deborah555 Hi Look after yourself, rabies in dogs is exotic to Australia but one dog eat an infected bat but apparently did not pass on the virus. There were two humans infected from overseas entering Australia with the virus. Someone running an eating place told me that the restrictions on dogs was to avoid rabies but as this is the only explanation I have ever got that made some sense I accepted it. I think it is a throw away to the old conditions where dogs run loose on the streets. 

43. BobWhitelaw Deborah555 Sorry I gave you the wrong information on the process. People keep referring the greyhound ACT as a BILL. A bill is like a motion prior to becoming a resolution. The Greyhound Ban Act also amend the Greyhound Racing Act 2009 and makes the position of Administrator and the sacking of the board under legislative rules. This does not negate a responsibility to reverse the ban and amend the Act quickly as suggested but it makes more complex to do it. A number of Acts need to be debated and re-issued in a new form. My preference is to go back to the 1998 amendment act with its separation of powers under the same location and backroom. The 2002 Geographical separate boards did not work as they were far too expensive to run with the same effect.

44. Iaah have learned that over regulation and legislation can kill any enterprise so I put foresrd the following.

    1.Get equality through the future fund not the inter code agreement. Playing with the inter code agreement will send you blind.

    2.Once you accept the above the rest is easy because the 1998 amendment act facilitated the above and also involved consultants who were involved in a million dollar success fee.The million to one change of dusty service orientated public servants improving the first act did not come off. Simply amend the existing act and have the biggest party in history and get plenty of change.(notes and coin).

    3. If you agree with 2 and 3 you have plenty of time and cash to focus on the domestic side of things and thats us.

    The reason that the  special commission going whacko from the start is that they accepted the welfare proposition that greyhound potentental winners  can be chosen before and up to whelping ( hence the early Canadian case). This belief is probably formed by the much greater in numbers show dog enterprises where visual features decide whether the animal will be  eligible for the stud book. If this is true ( I have not studied the show dogs administrations for a long time) The the show dog rejects would flood the market as pups for pets and take up the adoption services of people wanting pets as well. There was and is an outside view that culling of greyhound pups is endemic while insiders realise that it takes a long time to assess the ability of a greyhound to race. The upshot is that other canine enterprises get the first call on the adoptees as adopted dogs are mainly puppies. (Look at any stats including the RSPCA. 

    The question now becomes how can the greyhounds match the other canine enterprises and it is all down to adoption of pups early with various racing and breeding contract percentages to trust funds for retirement. Also the adoptee would enter a society of adopters with other services provided by greyhound racing. These actions would make greyhound racing competitive with othe canine enterprises which divide their breeds between professional and pets.

45. John Tracey 

    1.Get equality through the future fund not the inter code agreement. Playing with the inter code agreement will send you blind.

    John,me thinks u know something along this line?whispers are directed at that exact point.interesting hey?

46. spyman John Tracey Yes its around in many places, as recommendations and in discussions. I put it up at the time of the TAB float originally but the Government at the time were unwilling to return to a future fund. The future fund now is a lot larger than the previous one from (1973 to 1997). I wont go into further details as the matter will be played out at the higher levels.We can probably keep you informed further but probably the matter now should be restricted so if this site allows personal contact between parties I could keep people informed further.

47. John Tracey spyman 

    John Tracey spyman  John, I think it is a topic that needs to be discussed,but so many people would want to be informed. I get annoyed at some comments on forums that are more about destruction of the industry,when one knows that it is not as noted on a forum. some have a sense of thinking they know what is taking place,and comment from their own minds,and that can be like guessing in a way.what that does,is set a poor standard for the hard work going on behind the scenes. like the court cases that were coming a few months ago,everyone had opinions. some were never happy about how things were progressing,but as you have very smartly hinted,you cannot show all our  ideas by posting on a forum. for obvious reasons.

    I think,from what I hear,that is best let for people to be ‘surprised’ by the possible outcome of behind the scenes doings,when the time is right. sort of gives the Alliance a chance to say, ”patience is a virtue” and this will be so advantageous to the industry in the long run.

48. spyman John Tracey Hi spyman thanks for getting back to me on my posts. I agree with most of what you are saying.

    My only objection to posters is that I don’t want to spend much time with people who are comfortable with being victims and have given up. These people have made their accommodation in life and their only ambition is to pull everyone else in with them. They will double cross everything you try to do progressively. This is a hard comment and it applies across the board.

    This being said the people who stay in the fight or have recovered from oppression of any form and who have any opinion on anything are fine with me.

    My own feeling is that if you are a minority interest and the country greyhounds are a minority of a minority as well you are always advantaged with everything being on the table and being public Obviously if the matter concern different parties tendering on something then some confidentially needs to be given and criminal matters need to be under wraps but only during the process.

    Every time a minority group does a backroom deal they are long odds on to get duded as they loose the protection of visibility.

    There are genuine concerns that the greyhounds will be duded in negotiations which are not visible to all interested parties. This can also be the fault of the parties if they have not taken up the opportunity to gt the e-mail release of the alliance which are freely available by applying though the GBOTA office.

    Also regular information is forwarded to all the country club membership through e-mails to the various racecourse offices.

    The most important thing in negotiations is trust and this comes through not ambushing people. With regard to surprise I think that people are pleasantly surprised when they realise that they have hidden reserves in crisis. This explains why the Australian culture proved superior in the survival of soldiers of war and why we passed the test when interest wanted us to attack the horses on welfare matters. We seem to always get it right when we are in trouble.

    The only thing that worries me about positing is that the information can spread across the world and while all humans are a member of the public our public interest is the public in NSW and (2) in the Australian public interest.

49. spyman John Tracey We are preparing a report to be presented to the NSW GRCA (country clubs) special general meeting to be held in conjunction with the GBOTA annual meeting on a date to be advised in late November of early December. Subject to approval, amendment etc of the recommendations will be forwarded to the powers to be.

    Also we will be seeking guest speakers from all areas to assist the process. (infrastructure, marketing and promotion, tourism etc)

50. lone widow Hugh_ spyman Deborah555 Interesting that you say that, does this mean you feel that the industry may not have improved welfare standards sufficiently if not for the threat of the ban?  If that’s true, do you think you are in the minority or the majority of industry participants by feeling that welfare standards/protections were not strong enough?