What has the greyhound industry learned from the ban?

Past Discussion

1. John Tracey Hugh_ Deborah555 lone widow spyman jeff holland John I think there is truth in what you say.  I guess the words I would use to describe loyalty to oneself would be living in a way that is consistent with one’s own morals.  I think it is often the case in life that when we are backed into a corner and forced to make a decision we learn something about ourselves, we discover what really matters to us.  But I do not think there is one defining moment like this for a person in life, I think people often have many moments like this, and they can move in different directions each time.  I also think this is not the only force that helps us make these shifts in understanding and thinking.  Logic and reason play a part, the words of another, if convincing can shift the way we think, it can be a subtle change or a profound one.  It can also be our own words, or rather thoughts, as we think through an issue.

   Over the past few years my views on ethics have changed profoundly, I used to eat all things indiscriminately (more or less), and never gave a second thought to industries that make use of animals in other ways.  It has been a combination of confronting emotional moments, mostly arising from seeing video footage from farms, live exports, etc, and then many discussions, both internal and external, that have seen my views evolve.

   The point I’m getting at is that when we are backed into these corners and forced to react, the way we react is informed by the information and beliefs that we have at the time, and that can easily change.

   One of the reasons I put so much emphasis on philosophical ethical arguments is to ensure that my own actions are always consistent and true to what I believe, and that I do not violate my own ethics by reacting emotionally.  For many years I reacted emotionally, turned my mind away from contemplating the source of my food and the conditions that those animals lived in, and because of that I now look back with a sense of shame over how I paid money to people to hurt animals in ways that I would never be able to bring myself to do, all so that I could have a meal that was tasty.  Perhaps in your words that is how I make sure that I am loyal to myself, by making sure my ethical framework is backed up by solid, consistent and logical arguments.

2. Hugh_ lone widow spyman Deborah555 I think the one thing that Mike Baird doesn’t realize is that the ban has probably saved greyhound racing.  The welfare standards have completely turned the corner.

   Your second question, i think the majority of ‘the honest’ participants are happy with the outcome.  For me personally on drug use for the life of me i don’t see why a ‘Lance Armstrong’ solution could not apply to the greyhounds.  Basically the deterrent would be the confiscation of all past prize money which would have an immediate effect.

   But i don’t have a legal mind.

3. Hugh_ John Tracey Deborah555 lone widow spyman jeff holland Hugh thanks for staying with this, I am struggling a bit as your definition of a moment of truth takes in the classical meaning of the word and I think that the way I understand the term may be romantic and closer to Epiphany as defined as a sudden and profound understanding of something.

   I must have got the term moment of truth out of some classic and to me it means a situation where you don’t have time to think and you do something on instinct.

   ie confronting  a menacing sawn off shotgun for the first time. Cringe or live.

   I think I will quit while I am in front (LOL).

   Meaning of words is important we argued in the licensing court for 19 hours over the word “friends” in the early days in the objects of a poker machine club licence. (Licence determined in the negative)

   Term Members and Friends.

   Simple answer change to members and guests. (parties to paranoid to give in to any point)

4. jeff holland Hugh_ Hi Jeff I missed your post earlier ,

   Just on the prevention of cruelty to animals (humans) If the crew left on the corvette had rifles and could have shot the crew trying to escape the burning oil when all hope was gone should they have shot them to prevent unnecessary cruelty.?

   I am interested in your remarks on the need to accurately define words as well.

   The Prevention of cruelty to animals NsW acts uses the term unnecessary pain in places rather than unnecessary cruelty. this suggests that pain is immediate.

   People can not enter debates of these kinds without having a deep commitment to welfare. .

5. John Tracey Mad Panda That’s very disrespectful to all the independent rescue groups that keep many greyhounds alive and find them homes.  They get no support or money from the greyhound racing industry and are usually members of the public putting their own money and lives into rehoming ‘wastage’ from the greyhound racing industry.  These people and rescue groups are trying to help your industry, if not for them the greyhound industry would look even worse than it does. 

   How many greyhounds did GAP NSW rehome in 2014/2015, 179 greyhounds.  And how many greyhounds did they rehome in 2013/2014, 81 greyhounds.  I think your own internal rehoming scheme (singular) is frankly not good enough.  (figures sourced from page 4 of the GRNSW 2015 annual report).

6. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Hi D123, Thanks for your reply. I put all retired greyhounds of mine on commercial greyhound farms when I could not handle them personally myself and regularly inspected the premises. I realise everyone cannot do this. I did not say that all independent rescue groups I said community groups. I do not know what legal basis an independent rescue group is. The GAP program is run under a statutory body and should be required to compete with similar services provided by race clubs and in your case unfunded are they unincorporated bodies. This is simple competition policy requiring the criteria contained in the guidelines to competitive neutrality. There are plenty of groups within greyhound racing who assist with the placement of retired greyhounds with its boarders. My uncle used to take up to fourteen retired greyhounds  a lot of them dogs who were sold previously and were returned for various reasons. 

   If you call for donations in regard to greyhound welfare you are being paid by donations that could go to other parts of greyhound racing so in effect you are receiving funding targeted at greyhound racing. If you are a single unit only involved in greyhound rescue then the money you receive is targeted towards greyhounds but if you are an all purpose welfare scheme then money raised n the visibility of greyhounds goes elsewhere.

   In the USA the charity act requires a full financial and other disclosure in public. I can get the success rate of adoptions from the records in the USA but not in Australia.

   If you are not regulated then you are not properly policed and I cannot abide by this.

   If there were the services you supply being supplied on racecourses (which is the case in some countries) then the provision under the definition of charity on the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Acts would be regulated under the current rules of standards required for race course licensing. Also under OHS the condition of people involved in welfare is attended to.

   One of the most telling signs of mental imbalance is excessive altruism. You really need to understand this I have had to drag people off the street, selling their houses and giving all their earthly savings to the “poor”. We had a doctor who sold up all his worldly goods abd end3d up having to come back to work destitute in his old age.

   If people want to help our industry they should join it and lead us by example. I do not want to say anything to negative I realise there are great people in all endeavours. 

   If you want funding you need to become a regulated industry and the laws around registration should include a full public disclosure of your businesses or enterprises. 

   If you feel that you have been the target for disrespect it is regretted, I am happy to discuss thing with any person displaying good faith.

   In the end we are all interested in animal welfare and if the greyhound people can look after their own problems as suggested by Mad Panda  that will leave you and others free to tackle other welfare problems as well.

7. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda I guess it is up to Mad Panda to clarify, but based on their other posts I am pretty sure when they used the term ‘community groups’ they were talking about rescue groups.

   If you call for donations in regards to greyhound welfare you are not necessarily receiving funding targeted at greyhound racing at all, much of the donations that rescue groups receive are from people not involved in the industry at all but want to prevent greyhounds being killed.  If your point was that if a rescue group was to call for donations/financial support from the industry then that would be receiving funding targeting at greyhound racing, then what exactly is the problem with this?  At some point the greyhound industry needs to accept that rehoming their ‘wastage’ is their responsibility and that this responsibility involves a financial component.  Providing for their greyhounds futures beyond (or outside of racing) is a core part of the industry’s survival.  

   What exact groups are you referring to when you talk about ‘all purpose welfare scheme’ type units?  Can you give me a some names of the groups within greyhound racing who assist with the placement of retired greyhounds with its boarders (I am interested to hear about these groups)?

   Your points on charities needing more regulations is a valid point and hopefully that will one day be the case – full disclosure and regulation.  But this is just similar to any potential money making industries.

   In terms of your points on altruism, I don’t really see what relevance your personal anecdotes have to do or what they exactly illustrate?  More to the point can you actually provide any evidence of the connection of excessive altruism and mental imbalance?  Your personal anecdotes, actually do not provide any evidence that the doctor in that case was mentally imbalanced at all or that they people ‘giving all their earthly savings to the poor’ were mentally imbalanced.

   Oh, the irony of a self-regulated industry (that does not have a good track record of regulation) such as greyhound racing demanding that any group that wants funding must be regulated!

   One thing I can agree with you on is if the greyhound people look after their own problems, that will leave others to tackle other welfare problems – if this ends up being the case we will see.

8. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda

   Hey ‘Mad Panda’, do you just focus on ‘greyhound welfare’?  Do you worry about the many other breed of dogs that are considered ‘wastage’ buy their breeders or owners? or are you chasing a ’cause celebre’ that is the current flavour?  I ask these questions because there are many other breeds that have the interest of ‘rescue’ groups.  ‘Working Dogs’ on farms throughout Australia are but one.  Their are Collie, St Bernard, German Shepherd and a host of other breeds that are abandoned or surrendered to pounds, not to mention the number of dogs dumped by their owners at various ‘Pounds’ throughout Australia, including the RSPCA., who obviously  can only afford to keep so many before putting them to sleep so they can operate to a budget. The ‘venerable’ ABC, on one of its ‘Landline’ Programmes, claims that up to 60,000 ‘working dogs’ (farm bred) are either ‘drowned’ or ‘shot’ by the ‘poor farmer’  each year, because the farmer doesn’t need another ‘mouth to feed’. The figure of 60,000 dogs put down each year does not seem to strike a chord amongst your cohorts who don’t seem to give a fig about them and they just focus on ‘greyhounds’.  Can you explain why this is so?

9. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda  There are many genuine people within the rehoming community groups. I myself donate to two of them that I know are all about rehoming and the money is actually spent on the dogs, despite the fact I keep all of my own with me. I would actually prefer some one from one of these groups to replace the CEO of the RSPCA on the reform board as they would be aware of the needs and money required to rehome as many dogs as possible. Some one of course without a political agenda who believe that money should be spent on animals not “awareness”.

   My criticism has always been made at the animal activists not animal welfare people. The activists have a political agenda the welfare people a different one. These groups however are voluntary nobody in the greyhound industry makes you do it and you would get a lot more money and support from the greyhound people without the politics and condemnation of everyone in the industry. I find it quite disconcerting to find myself labelled as cruel bogan scum bag who apparently live baits and kills dogs when in actual fact I do not live bait, keep all of my dogs with me till the end of their days and they are treated like my children and I am not alone in the industry. The people within the industry are as keen to see the cruel element removed as much as you are. It may surprise you that most of the complaints about cruelty come from other trainers the action taken on these complaints however has in the past been very poor. The incident with the cattle prod was reported by at least four of the other trainers and nothing was done for two years and then only to justify the ban.

   There are many solutions to rehoming greyhounds as John stated many people pay people within the industry to keep their dogs for them when they have finished racing and a carefully managed breeding programme will also help.

10. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Thanks for your reply I have checked as legally as I can with my obligations under the various secrecy acts I have been subject to and I am pleased to answer some of your questions in detail.

    My knowledge in regards to rescue groups os generally what I can glean of the public record and through google and also talking to the groups at the various public hearings and in some cases at their protest meetings.

    My meaning for community groups for the purposes of my posts is

    A group under a” social licence” by Government where the majority of the entity perform volunteer or unpaid work. The benefit of the group to the community is not totally assessable in measured GDP. The group conforms as a not for profit entity and has objects which would qualify it under the criteria of the  definition of charity contained in The Prevention of Cruelty to Animals NSW Act. The entity may or might not receive Government funding and the legal basis for the entity would be an unincorporated association , an incorporated Association NFP, and a Public Company NFP. 

    The structures of the Rescue Groups are not completely known to me but they seem to involve community groups (unincorporated and incorporated associations NFP and also public companies NFP and shareholder companies.

    Most of the talks I had with the rescue groups including outside of greyhound community groups at the inquiry and other meetings focussed mainly on funding I will address this first.

    To put it simply most of the welfare services to both humans and animals in NSW was formerly done by State Government delegating the public interest to volunteer boards containing a mixture of public servants who in many cases were required to provide services over and above their paid public service jobs. The Wentworth Park trust is an example of this as the committee are unpaid and they work in the public interest. The Federal Government was essentially a Government supporting State rights.

    Things changed on the arrival of the Labor Federal Government in 1972 that was essentially favoured regional development bi-passing the State Government. (Australian Assistance Plan) where armongst other things funding was to flow directly to the community groups. The Australian Assistance Plan failed in this respect but it brought in reforms that allowed the Feds to take over funding of welfare under conditions allowing the flow of delegations through a State Government , Local council and direct to some NFP’s under Federal Acts.

    Sorry this is a bit long winded but you need background to understand funding.

    My first exposure to the granting of funding to the NFP’s was under the Federal Nursing Homes Act, What I had to do was make the constitutions of the Nursing Act NFP compliant to protect the public funding available to them, also the payments needed to be strategic. The first 80 applications we received were from NFP’s of which 74 wanted to be placed in Coffs Harbour.

    The evolution of the above funding led to the replacement of volunteer social workers without qualifications and various community type organisations being replaced with paid regulatory workers in various professions who amongst other things skilled staff and encouraged the skilling within the existing community groups (all governments encourage and potentially fund these groups)

    The reforms led further to CLERP which required all incorporated associations and NFP Companies to come under the same statutory requirements of a share holder board.

    My latest foray into advising entities on funding was with a progress group in a small hamlet in NSW. The group was previously an unincorporated association being a group of people who met nearly daily and were always putting in for grants and virtually getting knocked back. The group ended up becoming incorporated and giving the funds comfort thus allowing funding to flow. The only problem was a social one where they were denied having a general special meeting every day of the company. The intersection of incorporation and its red tape and lack of freedom needs to be balanced with the need also for a social need of people.

    The world bank funded and introduced running water to homes in a particular country where the woman previously had to walk to the well and carry the water back. The problem with this reform was that the woman were very oppressed and going to the well and conversing with other women was more beneficial to them as it was the only time they were let out of the house. The solution needed to be the best of both worlds one.

    In greyhound racing a reasonable case can be presented that all of the racecourses (clubs) pass the test under the charity definition as all management committees involve unpaid services.

    The Clubs (racecourses have a range of volunteer and unpaid services) varying in degree

    There are also a mix of incorporated and unincorporated services that involve animal welfare.

    I will list these at a later date, as a lot of these services previously applied have lost their focus due to the legislative failures of the various acts and regulations since the 1998 reforms. Animal welfare had a better focus up until 1998 than afterwards and while the evolution needs to continue there is also an essential backlog to be addressed as well.

11. D123 Mad Panda (continuation)

    My advice to the outside community groups not incorporated and seeking funding would be to become a sub committee under an incorporated association or company with a social licence (if you re already not doing this, where you keep some independence but receive yur funding from the consolidated funding first charge from the parent body. This situation still involves some tensions but I dont think that public funding (Government) needs the comfort of incorporation today.

    The Doctor I spoke of wrote a book explaining his difficulties with his imbalance and advised para staff on the dangers of stress and mental in-balance. We had to do training on spotting the signs. GRNSW offered their staff professional services for stress after seeing the ABC video. The above may be over the top but it is fairly common OHS procedure. For example when there is  horrific accident professional OHS (occupational health and safety professionals) automatically attend to para-medics involved at the site.

    If you want further evidence of the need for OHS in either these situations then contact is it Beyond Blue or Black Dog as they hire the same professionals as consultants. I could have the behaviour of various people profiled as to unbalanced stress (for the wqnt of  better term) butI need to move round on other things and I am sure of my grounds. This is another reason why groups need to be under  a parent body. Also I recognise that some groups are totally elf funding and if you cn afford this then you are getting lose to total freedom.We self fund a welfare aimed greyhound touring group called the Happiness Club that has  been involved with charity of greyhound racecourses for over two decades.

12. 123. Reply continued.

    My advice to the outside community groups not incorporated and seeking funding would be to become a sub committee under an incorporated association or company with a social licence (if you re already not doing this, where you keep some independence but receive yur funding from the consolidated funding first charge from the parent body. This situation still involves some tensions but I dont think that public funding (Government) needs the comfort of incorporation today.

    The Doctor I spoke of wrote a book explaining his difficulties with his imbalance and advised para staff on the dangers of stress and mental in-balance. We had to do training on spotting the signs. GRNSW offered their staff professional services for stress after seeing the ABC video. The above may be over the top but it is fairly common OHS procedure. For example when there is  horrific accident professional OHS (occupational health and safety professionals) automatically attend to para-medics involved at the site.

    If you want further evidence of the need for OHS in either these situations then contact is it Beyond Blue or Black Dog as they hire the same professionals as consultants. I could have the behaviour of various people profiled as to unbalanced stress (for the wqnt of  better term) butI need to move round on other things and I am sure of my grounds. This is another reason why groups need to be under  a parent body. Also I recognise that some groups are totally self funding and if you can afford this then you are getting towrds total freedom.We self fund a welfare aimed greyhound touring group called the Happiness Club that has  been involved with charity of greyhound racecourses for over two decades.

13. We’ve learned to be ready Katherine.  Another assault (attempted) in WA read this.

    There going Australia wide.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-30/rspca-attacks-wa-greyhound-industry-euthanasia-rates/7976544

14. BJoe D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Hi BJoe, Just continuing my original reply. D123 in summary.

    Your network where it is a community group under my definition, Needs to become a sub committee or a branch of a parent body (if it is not already) and receive first charge funding  through consolidated funding of the parent. This will give you a degree of freedom and funding as well.Also the stress management I have mentioned is not exceptional to any group. Para Medics get it on the site from experts in traumatic situations and there is evidence of mental tension in anything to do with welfare. The parent company would have the processes I am talking about. I will try and contact the family of the Doctor I mentioned he published something on stress in -balance.

    Stripped to simple terms all the greyhound control board is, is funding body using its financial powers to guide behaviour.

    As the authority (previous) had no item of budget for animal welfare and its distribution incentive scheme supported wagering income and deducted funding off clubs holding animal welfare promotions, even Mother Teresa over time would stop providing welfare to the poor and encourage them to punt. 

    I am not accusing the people assisting the special commission of inquiry for having a mental imbalance, you need to use your mentality to get there.. The commission should have found Government responsibility in the scheme of things which was left in the end to have to be done by the Premier. At least some power to him.

15. Deborah555 D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Hi Deborah I am glad you made that distinction, I am misunderstood. People who are sensitive enough to become mentally unbalanced with stress, depressed , manic or otherwise are usually great people themselves and there are plenty of them throughout welfare and also amongst the greyhound population itself. It is just a functional problem  not a worth problem. Australia was founded on administrators/Governors being either lemons or fruitcakes. Everyone hoped the Governor’s they got were fruitcakes. Unfortunately when any of us are on a mental roll we are high maintenance and personally I can cope with this, people have been patient with me during fragile times but when it comes to the welfare of my greyhounds I need to deal with someone guaranteed to be stable.

16. John Tracey Mad Panda John   yes i agree that some activities  by all groups in the K9 world have been below par, and more  work needs to be  done in the area of Animal welfare and prolonging the life of all K9s no matter what breed they are. The situation of which the Greyhounds  find themselves in NSW   should be a wake-up call for all breeds of dogs right across Australia and show we do care about our K9s. John what makes me cranky  with some that try to blame the majority of decent dog owners for the cruelty of the minority . Now D123  has not taken in to account of events that have happen since the Live Baiting issue was aired,That Program highlighted the failure of administration and rouge trainers, if you notice he is quoting figures 2013/14/15 when actually records by  the administration, now records were not kept where greyhounds life span was concerned before them dates . Brent Hogan CEO at the select committee hearing at Penrith, when ask about Greyhounds that had been euthanised  or rehomed he  had no idea and took a guess ? John since i purchased my property i have rehomed over 60 greyhounds, and at one stage i was boarding Greyhounds for Friends Of The Hounds .Now when the Live Baiting Issue hit the Media ,this group wiped me like a dirty b*m and after many phone calls to these people still no answer, and with these dogs i ask for no money in return  for the looking after  these dogs .John when a owner surrendered a Greyhound for adoption  with F,O,T,H there is a cost to the owner  which was around  which  was way to little i think , when ask what happens to the ones that are not suitable for adoption i was told don’t ask!  A audit was done on my establishment by the RSPCA, Council, and GRNSW in 2014  and all concern were happy with the treatment of the dogs here and  GRNSW conducted another audit  last year on Greyhound that where on my property and to much to my surprise they did not want to know about any Greyhounds whelped before 2011 its a fact  that i have 21 greyhounds in retirement who where whelped before 2011 which tells you the figures are all over the shop sort of speak.John media makes no mention of the good people in the Industry  and also the attacks that comes from  not only from the animal activist but also people in the Industry, examples Death threats, destruction of infrastructure, ill legal filming of activities on my property re racing education and not to mention  Floods and Bush Fires,lost infrastructure,  but saved dogs.The sad part is some of these people don’t have a real purpose in life, they are very miserable in their own life and just want you to be as miserable as them.!

17. I have decided to remove a few of my posts off the site. 

    In the end to be viable we need a lot of negotiation with the wider public and a joint effort across the board to meet public expectations.

    The exisiting clubs and race courses can be used to provide infrastructure and greyhound services. Also all controlling bodies of canines and companion animals need to lift their game as well.

    I am worried about the risk of a lack of focus on the Orange Bi-Election as well.

18. BobWhitelaw John Tracey Mad Panda I have not quoted any 2016 figures because they have not been released yet.

19. D123 BobWhitelaw John Tracey Mad Panda D123 Since the sacking of the CEO and the Board ,Newson’s implementation of reform when appointed was moving in the right direction as far animal welfare was concern .The Newly  appointed Reform Manager  Wayne Billett was moving  quickly with reforms that were urgently needed  in the code and they were working ,then came galloping in Baird and Grant and shut down the industry, administrator appointed, then apology, we got it wrong, administrator shuts down the Industry Reform program Billett moved side ways so the figures for 2016 could be another guess. So D123 with industry  reform put on the back burner,  progressing past July 1st for the industry is highly unlikely and that should appease people like yourself 

20. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Firstly, without any ‘awareness’ there would be no reform and there would be absolutely no improvement in animal welfare from the greyhound racing industry.  As you have clearly pointed out, in the past little or no action has been taken by GRNSW in terms of animal welfare complaints or animal cruelty.  The killing of greyhounds would also not have been addressed without the awareness of the public.  GRNSW is the fox running the hen house and whatever your beliefs on whether greyhound racing is right or wrong, having an industry that self-regulates (answering to no-one) and has the choice over money or the lives of animals, money is going to win.

    I see you have made the distinction between animal activists and animal welfare people but I do not see any evidence of that distinction amongst your many posts on this site.

    There are greyhound adoption groups that greyhound people could easily donate too, GAP NSW asks for donations, is backed by your industry (so is clearly not saying anything against greyhound owners, trainers).

21. lone widow  Yes the greens candidates have been carrying on in Tasmania and South Australia (do these green  pollies actually have an economic policy or are the tax payers paying them to repeat a job the stewards and racing boards do anyway they are simply using the racing board information and twisting it to their own agenda) The RSPCA in Victoria have been told by the government to get back in their box and get on with their job which is animal welfare not funding the campaigns of greens and animal activist candidates. The RSPCA was a once respected organisation their involvement in extreme animal activist politics is not helping their cause or the animals in their care.

22. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Activists groups producing distressing and very selective footage and not spending a cent on an animal from the millions in tax free donations-  It suggests that cruelty is an event only known by special animal activists and the rest of the ignorant uninformed need to be told it smacks of “self righteousness”  when in actual fact every adult on the planet knows you have to kill an animal to eat it’s meat and it is not a pleasant thing they just do not want it thrust in their faces, given that life is cruel most people chose to try and find the good parts of life. That behaviour is not that they are unaware it is what people with good mental health do. The motives of some of the activists is not animal welfare. One particular video done by British activists showed a filthy disgusting kennel house what it did not say was the elderly owner had died in his bed  two weeks before on a remote rural property. The fact the dogs were still alive after two weeks means they must have been in good health. To demonise an elderly man who is not able to defend himself because he was dead and previously his dogs had been well cared for  is disgraceful and has nothing to do with concern for greyhounds.

    I believe I have made the distinction between animal activists  and animal welfare very obvious in many of my posts.

    GRNSW just bought a community group a dog trailer worth ,000 – that was what the said they needed and made several other donations to community groups- check their site. This money was available because greyhound trainers willingly took drops in prize money to set up a welfare fund. If you are involved in a rehoming group put in an application for a grant.

23. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Like I said in my previous post, without ‘awareness’ live-baiting would not have been brought to light, nor the overbreeding and the unecessary killing of greyhounds.  More greyhounds have and will be rehomed due to ‘awareness’, surely that is what you want, is it not?

    The greyhound industry can continue to blame others all they want but the fact of the matter is that they historically have done nothing meaningful to address animal welfare issues and have managed to avoid any scrutiny until the past couple of years.  That is why the industry finds itself in the position it is.

    I have found the GRNSW page on it’s Rehoming Assistance Schemes and how independent organisations can get up to ,000 towards an item that directly benefits their re-homing activities (including dog trailers) but I cannot find the page which lists the donations they have made or lists which groups have received money (how much, what they have spent it on etc).  Do you have the link?

24. Deborah555 lone widow Absolutely Deborah.

    The RSPCA the Greens and the Animal activists have no idea about greyhound racing or the participants or the dogs themselves.  My two 17 months old have just qualified to nominate which has given a 72 year old pensioner a new lease of life and the pups (as i call them) are thoroughly loving every minute of what they do. Happy puppies isn’t that what we’re about?

25. lone widow Deborah555  It is certainly my main agenda lone widow. I would have thought anyone donating to the RSPCA does it because they care about animals with the expectation it was to feed or possibly rehome an animal-  if you want to donate to a political party or candidate you would donate directly to them they all have web pages with donate here. On the Animals Australia web page there is no way to comment whatsoever but their DONATE HERE is very prominent.

26. Deborah555 lone widow

    I would dearly love to know how many and how much the RSPCA’s executive staff, including the red headed rooster on his high 6 figure salary, actually contribute to the ‘charitable Organisation’ that employs them.

27. D123 BobWhitelaw John Tracey Mad Panda D123, I have received your latest post off line and do not know how to reply to it off line.

    Thanks for reading my posts and asking questions. I am sorry if you think that I am hogging the site too much but I only contribute to this site and The Roar and I find it useful for market and historical research.

    I have taken off the posts that might be regarded as unhelpful and because welfare people inside of greyhound racing think I might be giving comfort to people who are in a state of inertia.

    The happiness club of which I am the main organiser has run tours to rural areas in conjunction with greyhound racing clubs charity events often to do with animal welfare annually since 1985. One of the foundation members has been on the promotion committee of Opera Australia and this allows a network of a considerable number of people who are wealthy and who have adopted dogs and in some cases have been involved in animal welfare overseas. The most notable comment from these people is the lack of normalising of dogs in Australia and the absence of animal welfare infrastructure.

    My objection to animal welfare administration and services is from a consumer point of view.

    GRNSW under the 2009 Act and the section activated in 2012 is not a control board with delegated authority from the greyhound racing sport , it is a delegated authority of the Government. Club and Racecourse people are statute barred from being on it.

    GAP id not a charity but is a committee registered as a NFP under an incorporation (Trades Practice)

    My connection with GAP is that they will join with greyhound charity meeting on request and this is appreciated. Prior to the latest GRNSW Act when the club were represented on the boards the RSPCA branches were often a part of the clubs welfare promotions and so were many show dog clubs. Other animal interested groups were invited as well.

    From a consumers point of view the animal adoption and services seem unregulated and not graded. I might be wrong but I do not have the time to look at several places to place my dog (not a greyhound),

    Control boards are essentially funding bodies and in previous years up to recent times they did not have a budget item for animal welfare and they “fined” the clubs that ran animal welfare enterprises (as an expense and rewarded the clubs who increased wagering even though our market share waas pegged at 13% no matter what. As I said in a previous post I took down.

    In the above circumstances Mother Teresa would stop feeding the poor and get them to punt.

    My aim is to express that animal welfare productivity should not be hard as it comes off a small base.

    Also if any entity wants funding it needs to become either incorporated itself or become an unincorporated committee under a parent. There is a great freedom in being an individual or being in an un-recording entity but you need to be self funding.

    The best of both worlds is to be under a parent rather than something else.

28. BJoe Deborah555 lone widow  Bjoe the red setter does not just make a six salary income from that he is on numerous advisory boards where I would imagine he is paid his services  for that as well. He has a tafe qualification relating to inspection duties  and he was originally one of their inspectors his rise has been quite spectacular. The other board members have vet and law degrees. He is obviously a very ambitious man unlikely he would have cleaned out a kennel or picked up a poo all that  is done by volunteers working for nothing  who do actually care about animals.

29. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda  Check their new archives that was where I saw the information in a news article.

30. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Just went through their news archives, no mention of a ,000 dog trailer being given to any community group.

31. Deborah555 BJoe lone widow Deborah, lets put all this welfare crap aside for a minute, I think it’s just a smoke screen.

    Berate me for my criticism if you like but from where i’m sitting it looks like all the red sitters and the pollies and all the hangers on are after ‘JOBS FOR THE BOYS’. they are all after a slice of the ,000,000 greyhound pie.

    Things will settle down when they all have their slice.

32. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda D123. The term awarenesss is defined as visibility in most learned publications/

    The best reference is Animals equality and Democracy – Siobhan O’Sullivan. If you google this you will get pages of the book by permission of Springer and if you can afford it you can purchase it on e-book .07.

    The book not only covers the cruelty act but  two other associated acts, basically it states that an animals welfare is protected by its visibility. The original Acts covered experiments on animals in dark places.

    My point with you is that your network of animal welfare canine enterprises is not visible to me.I might be blind but I do heavy research.

    You can cherry pick items from the above book to make  a show case or so otherwise , it is up to you.

33. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Now your acting like a winner.cThe information might be contained in the annual reports of GRNSW used to be obtainable in about us on the to ribbon of http://www.thedogs.com.au.

    Apply for the information you require through the the Government Information (Public Access) Act 2009

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/giaa2009368/

    Also google GIPA for guidance and contact GRNSWand ask for the information officer.

    Under the Act you can ask for an informal search which should get you the details you want. Otherwise you will need to apply under the Act formally called the freedom of information act. The act is now under a privacy commissioner.

    You should ask first for a copy of all submissions for this grant. In a lot of cases no one has applied.

    Then you should include what was the general funding applied for and what was the result of the application

    What was the legal classification of the entity applying and what was the success break up.

    When you have this information you will be in a better position to apply yourself.

    Un-incorporated associations are well known for not applying for grants. This is my point of why they need parent bodies.

    The best of luck I did not know of this service but I will certainly rattle the tin for the NFP’s. The timing is sensational as I am attending rural meetings next week.

    Let me know what results you have got if you dont mind it will take a bit of the heavy lifting off me.

    If the information is not forthcoming there is an appeal procedure available, dont be timid the amimals are depending on us.

34. John Tracey Mad Panda Thank you for backing up my comment on ‘awareness’ and the greyhound racing industry.  As I said before, without certain groups bringing ‘awareness’ or some visibility (as the term is defined as) to the practices of the greyhound industry, such as live-baiting, killing of greyhounds, drugging of dogs (just to name a few) the greyhound industry would have never attempted any reform.

    Same could be said for greyhound breeders and trainers on an individual level, their practices are not visible to me.

35. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Sorry but you have done what I hoped you not to and that is to cherry pick the information I gave you but at least you have the interest to continue the debate.

    What you are proposing is romantic and not in my opinion logical. There is always reform going on in any endeavour the greyhounds are more visible than other canine endeavours. The visibility allows the majority of people in greyhound racing to advance their welfare claims easier.

    You really need to research things better. I am running out of time on my other projects so I will be leaving this site shortly.

    Just on funding as this is the conversation I always end up with the welfare industry or groups etc. There are about 40 funds in total that the welfare can rattle and if you are a registered charity you can try the Casino fund as well (not sure of its criteria but it barred normal NFP’s some time ago) The forty is made up of the three levels of Government and usually can be found on Government sites under the encouragement of volunteers.

    Just on Visibility as used in encouraging donations. There was a project to bring one greyhound back from China and money was for the purpose. The reason for raising this money from donations was a protest that there were no adoption or rescue schemes (while this statement has been challenged for the purpose of the exercise let us say that it is a fact. The number of of dogs retiring from racing each year is a few hundred. In the rest of China there are 110 mill;ion registered canines of which some are greyhounds that run without money wagering on 150 tracks.The money raised by donations is considerable and well over the costs of getting the donations. Logically that money should go to setting up facilities in China for greyhound rescue and adoption.There are a lot of Australians in China working with greyhounds so setting up there would not be difficult. The Chinese Friendship Associations in Australia tell me that a rescue scheme would be most welcome.

36. Deborah555 D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Deborah could you and other convey to D123 and Mad Panda that the converse of Visibility is that because greyhounds are so visible their is a good chance that the welfare of greyhounds is better handled than other aspects in the canine empire which have no reporting and very little oversight.

    The greyhound have to lift their game but so do all the other activities associated with animals.

    There is a wholistic approach. Visibility also includes physical matters as well like seeing animals in eating places, public transport, monuments, graveyards and crematorium. Monuments and Awards are top on the animal welfare lists in some countries overseas.

    While sites like this encourage people to contribute as avitar because the opinions carry a lot less weight than opinions with a name attached to them it is helpful if posters to give a bit of their background so we know how to frame answers and questions to them.

    I cannot profile you D123 or Mad Panda as you are not the classical organisational welfare industry people.

    It is an interesting topic,

    good bye and good luck.

37. John Tracey D123 Mad Panda John done some cherry picking my self and yesterday watched a program on a horse stud in the Upper Hunter Valley, now there is a number of studs in the area of Scone .The Stud Master from one stud ,quoted that this breeding  season we will around 220 foals  breed this year ,John i wonder how many make the Track , maybe D 123 could tell us ?

38. John Tracey Deborah555 D123 Mad Panda Yes its easy for some to hide their identity behind a keyboard which is their right .John its also sad for them when they are living their life full of fear, Some would say its a sign of weakness in their stature  i tend to agree!

39. BobWhitelaw John Tracey Deborah555 Mad Panda  themHi Bob if avatars can sit in judgement of human beings from some delegation from the gods so I would not be asking to judge the great sport of horse racing anymore than I would regard their approaches to greyhounds. The horse welfare has advanced significantly since I was involved in it and it is to do with the greyhounds cross funding it.

    I now regard myself as functus officio (you can do just about anything on a internet site) as I need to assist the rural clubs in a log of claims to be delivered to the special meeting and the Government. The best of luck in your endeavours and always remember that if you want something ask for it.

    Sorry for the Nellie Melba moment but I must steel myself to go.

40. John Tracey BobWhitelaw Deborah555 Mad Panda  Brilliant John.

41. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda  I know it is not there but I knew you would enjoy not finding it and trying to prove me wrong. Try harder the information is available. HINT check a community welfare website.

42. BobWhitelaw John Tracey Deborah555 D123 Mad Panda  What I find astounding is their belief that have the right to know everything that everyone else does and then demand people justify themselves to them. Gen X I would say – great sense of entitlement.

43. lone widow Deborah555 BJoe  I agree lone widow quite a few lucrative positions coming up for grabs.

44. BobWhitelaw John Tracey Deborah555 D123 Mad Panda John, your a Legend

45. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda John, it has been good reading your comments and to be honest you make some interesting points, that is until you descended into the whole avatar thing and rather irrelevant topics such as China (which obviously I know of their lack of animal welfare and absence of rescue groups). 

As for ‘cherry-picking’ I have done only the same as you have done in your reply. 
     – You state that awareness is defined as visibility and that this means that animals are protected by their visibility. 
     – You then declare that animal welfare canine enterprises are not visible to you.


    Yet  you then take issue when the exact same criteria is used against the greyhound industry, greyhound breeders and trainers.  The same could also be applied to your greyhound boarders and commercial greyhound farms as you call them.  There is no visibility to them either. 

    You say what I have proposed is romantic and not logical in your opinion, but what exactly have I proposed?  If you talking about the idea that the rescue groups have brought about ‘awareness’ to the greyhound industry and thus reform, that is not a proposal at all.  You declare that reform is always going to happen in any endeavour, I think that is more of an overly romantic and unrealistic ideological standpoint based on evidence of the past, especially in terms of greyhound racing.  The greyhound industry has not reformed when there has been no expectation from the public to, there has not even been reform (until recent times) with public expectation to.  So to say that left to it’s own devices the greyhound racing industry would reform is just plain delusory.  You previously posted (since taken down) that ‘As the authority (previous) had no item of budget for animal welfare and its distribution incentive scheme supported wagering income and deducted funding off clubs holding animal welfare promotions, even Mother Theresa would stop providing welfare to the poor and encourage them to punt.’  – this viewpoint directly contradicts your later statement that ‘There is always reform going on in any endeavour.’

46. John Tracey Mad Panda Deborah, since you cannot provide the link (which surely you would do if it existed, as it would prove me wrong),  all I can presume is that you have read the GRNSW website about how they were offering ,000 to rehoming groups, that could be used for items such as dog trailers and decided to once again declare an incorrect statement.  I cannot say that I am surprised as you seem to do this a lot.

47. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda  What makes you think every bit of information can be googled?

48. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda I do not think every bit of information can be googled, that is why I asked you to provide me with the link.

49. Deborah555 lone widow BJoe Deborah, Katherine has asked us what we have learned from the ban. People of our generation have seen it happen many times over the years, the pollies need to make an impact, leave a legacy something that they will be remembered for, its in their nature.

    Am I the only one that can plainly see that Mike Baird has been groomed by the Libs as a likely prime minister in the near future? I do think that the Libs are as close to dictating as you can get, its only the Westminster system that has saved us so far, but Mike Baird heaven help Australia.

    Katherine that is what I have learned.

50. D123 John Tracey Mad Panda Rehoming up by 80% this year and building on those numbers ,well done owners.